Sejuani and female champs

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Evil Enchantress

Senior Member

01-12-2012

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Originally Posted by MandyMemory View Post
That's why ninjas are always shown decked out in armor. Or assassins. Or martial artists. Or anyone that's not a knight.

There is one specific kind of combat that lends itself to heavy armor. Nothing in league is anything like it. Most RL battles only started like it, then degraded to where someone without any armor would have a massive mobility advantage.
I was totally ready to go down the rabbit hole with you, but it's kinda beside the point of this thread! You can wear whatever you want, 'cause you're an agent who can make decisions for herself. Sejuani, and other characters created by RIOT, on the other hand, don't have that luxury. Their representation is the result of a series of decisions made by RIOT staff, with at least some conscious intent of sexualization, at the expense of reason, comfort, or safety. That's what we're all in a huff about!


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IronStylus

Sr. Concept Artist

01-12-2012
18 of 21 Riot Posts

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Originally Posted by Myrmidont View Post
bland design, I'm paying modelers to create new exciting artwork, why should I pay them for butter churned **** made from a template?

they're god ****ed professionals and this isn't challenging them or us as an audience or them as designers
Ah. Now I think I'm recalling why I may have glazed over particular arguments you may have raised, be they thoughtfully valid or ripe for dismissal.


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Maikky

Senior Member

01-12-2012

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Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
...Challenge Accepted.
Thats not a alt skin of a champion .


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Korica Riftaxe

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Senior Member

01-12-2012

Ahem. This.


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Izanagi Fiaresu

Senior Member

01-12-2012

Boobs= money

Why else are strip joints so popular.


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Maikky

Senior Member

01-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
I've yet to have time to read those articles but I shall do so when I get the chance.

Also.. don't make me get into how Leona's heels actually are a paragon of function and classy design!

Anywhoozle, funny thing is, when I was doing a bit of work on Sejuani, we made an effort to make sure she didn't look dainty. In the art spotlight you're looking at a very action-y pose which may make her diminish because that boar is just so ready to throttle you.

That being said, yes, often in the video game industry, and the entertainment industry, there is a "standardization" of female form. I'm as guilty of it as any other artist when designing. Leona is a tall curvy lady which in my mind is "idealized". We're artists, we like "ideal" and sometimes default to it. (REMEMBER! I'm keeping "Ideal" in QUOTES! "Ideal" is not an "Ideal" term for what I'm "Ideally" trying to explain) That isn't to say that our lexicon is or should be limited to a particular scope, but let's be honest, a lot of natural human tendency which is often hardwired into us makes us gravitate towards particular biological attributes. I'm not trying to defend that gravitation, but I am saying that we are many times inexorably drawn to it... no art pun intended.

Let's also consider something. Readability. In the game, the characters are fairly small, nyez? So, we do often I believe have to make sure we're making sure to make sure that the figure is readable as a girl or guy. How do we do this? Well, proportion, accentuation, exaggeration, etc. Want the feminine form to read in a game? Welp, guess what, it might have to be a bit more famine and/or stylized than usual to read at the proper distance and keep readable when moving. That's just making sure we cover the basics of simple silhouette recognition. If we make her too broad, you might mistake Sejuani for a male, that'd be, ya know, not what we want.

Now, that said, and I may be at bit too full of microwave mashed potatoes at this point, but I do have certain issues with certain champs and their body types. I do flinch here and there when I consider the logistics that certain clothing might entail. However, as an artist, as a gamer, I'm looking for something that's rewarding to my eye. Sometimes that might be a dynamic silhouette, sometimes maybe the nuanced movement of a character, possibly the hardwired biological aspect, or any other pleasing imagery. As a gamer and as an artist, I want a visual reward. That's a lot of what gaming is and art for that matter. Engagement -> Reward.

Particularly though, at least speaking for myself, I also want to know how that armor or lack thereof functions! But, what is the trade off? Do I think Sejuani might need to make a trip to Sports Chalet and get some heavy winter gear? Possibly.. BUT! I also want her to be wearing something more interesting than a Columbia snowboarding jacket and I also want her to read clearly when I play her. That's a whole lot in the equation.

There's trade-offs to everything, and sometimes we don't even know those trade-offs on a conscious level. If you saw Sejuani in a head to toe outfit, or heavily armor-clad, or maybe beefier, well, that actually presents a slew of other visual problems to work out. We then have problems with whether we could tell her gender or not. The boar (Let's take get a betting game going to see if you can guess the boar's name) might indicate, given another armor or outfit situation, that she's a guy. Thickening her up, while addressing how a chick could wield such a weapon comes at a risk of her looking like a male also. We wanted her to be fit and vicious. Adding particular types of clothing, mass, armor, etc might detract from that... also! You haven't seen all her skins yet! Maybe you'll find something cool in there! =D

Personally? I like the more "reasonably" clad gals, but hey, that's why I gravitate towards champs like Leona. But heck, while Sejuani has her own visual style, and unique challenges, I am not opposed to her being taken in the direction she has been. I think our goal is to provide a rewarding experience, sometimes we have to suspend our otherwise pesky disbelief and roll with it. Will we push limits in the future? Yes. Will we also work within pre-established motifs, structures, archetypes and the tendencies for the unconscious mind to latch onto particular tropes as long as we find the situation appropriate? Yes.

Regardless, I'm not sure if this is all making any sense. I'm pretty tired. Also, ya know. Mashed potatoes. Either way, I enjoy these discussions and I'd like to keep having them. There's a lot we go through over here when we design champs artistically and believe me, nothing you're saying hasn't been discussed or not thought over. In the end, we're having fun, and we hope you are too!
There are other ways to tell a champions gender, if she wore giant plate armor but here head was exposed with long hair / etc we could easily tell that its a her .

Also voice acting (Even though most of the female champions have little to no difference in voice)


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IronStylus

Sr. Concept Artist

01-12-2012
19 of 21 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maikky View Post
There are other ways to tell a champions gender, if she wore giant plate armor but here head was exposed with long hair / etc we could easily tell that its a her .

Also voice acting (Even though most of the female champions have little to no difference in voice)
Excellent points!


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Maeverick

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Junior Member

01-12-2012

If you want champs that look like poppy, we wouldnt know which gender each champ is


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Zenode

Senior Member

01-12-2012

The reason I don't get about this argument is.

You see all these beautiful women in games with large breasts, but we don't complain about all these insanely big muscles/ladys man/good looking men that are CONSTANTLY in games.

Where's the hero for us sensitive men (No amumu doesn't count)


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LuciedBR

Senior Member

01-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
Totally saw your post, googled her, you have excellent points! I'm a bit brain burned to give you any sort of meaningful input aside from.. "Words! Good! Banana!"
Ah, I see. Thank you for still taking the time to acknowledge it, then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Korica Riftaxe View Post
One of my favorite examples of this bias is the fact that every single non-human champion is characterized as male. Malphite, Maokai, Nocturne, etc. They all have male-esque bodies and male-esque voices. Their gender is completely irrelevant and yet still they are displayed as male.
Why can't we have a giant spider monster that happens to be female?
As has already been noted, Anivia is female. I'm not sure why you didn't recall her, but I do propose one possibility: You never heard her in game and thus defaulted to the assumption that she was male, because male is the default gender in English (and most languages around the world). There is a non-gender pronoun it, but "it" is usually not associated with sapient being.

In any case, the OP's complaint is less that there are only females with idealized body types: We have quite a few with child body types and one monster. It's more that every adult human female has the ideal body type as opposed to a grotesque one like Gragas.

I suspect the most economically safe method for Riot to break that trend is to release an old crone. Crones are common enough in fictional imagery that people would readily accept such appearance without much question (unless the design has a lot of other deliberately ugly attributes, e.g. being a leper). The attraction of such an out of the norm (for the game) design should draw in more than those who are turned away by her being ugly.