Sejuani and female champs

First Riot Post
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Invalid Gamer

Senior Member

01-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahgar View Post
Personally, I'd like to see female champions with a little more meat on their bones. Watching these big-breasted stick figures fight it out is cute and all, but we need a real woman with some curves going on in this game.
Throw in Gragas's wife. The game will win fs.


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IronStylus

Sr. Concept Artist

01-12-2012
7 of 21 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loc View Post
And I thank you for the consideration, sir.

Also, -70? Really? I'm not sure I like what that says about this community. @_@
Don't fret too much, it's all in good discussion. Disagreements happen in good discussion, and it always ends up being a better result when we discuss said disagreements. =)


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Vladimir Lem0n

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Senior Member

01-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
I've yet to have time to read those articles but I shall do so when I get the chance.

Also.. don't make me get into how Leona's heels actually are a paragon of function and classy design!

Anywhoozle, funny thing is, when I was doing a bit of work on Sejuani, we made an effort to make sure she didn't look dainty. In the art spotlight you're looking at a very action-y pose which may make her diminish because that boar is just so ready to throttle you.

That being said, yes, often in the video game industry, and the entertainment industry, there is a "standardization" of female form. I'm as guilty of it as any other artist when designing. Leona is a tall curvy lady which in my mind is "idealized". We're artists, we like "ideal" and sometimes default to it. (REMEMBER! I'm keeping "Ideal" in QUOTES! "Ideal" is not an "Ideal" term for what I'm "Ideally" trying to explain) That isn't to say that our lexicon is or should be limited to a particular scope, but let's be honest, a lot of natural human tendency which is often hardwired into us makes us gravitate towards particular biological attributes. I'm not trying to defend that gravitation, but I am saying that we are many times inexorably drawn to it... no art pun intended.

Let's also consider something. Readability. In the game, the characters are fairly small, nyez? So, we do often I believe have to make sure we're making sure to make sure that the figure is readable as a girl or guy. How do we do this? Well, proportion, accentuation, exaggeration, etc. Want the feminine form to read in a game? Welp, guess what, it might have to be a bit more famine and/or stylized than usual to read at the proper distance and keep readable when moving. That's just making sure we cover the basics of simple silhouette recognition. If we make her too broad, you might mistake Sejuani for a male, that'd be, ya know, not what we want.

Now, that said, and I may be at bit too full of microwave mashed potatoes at this point, but I do have certain issues with certain champs and their body types. I do flinch here and there when I consider the logistics that certain clothing might entail. However, as an artist, as a gamer, I'm looking for something that's rewarding to my eye. Sometimes that might be a dynamic silhouette, sometimes maybe the nuanced movement of a character, possibly the hardwired biological aspect, or any other pleasing imagery. As a gamer and as an artist, I want a visual reward. That's a lot of what gaming is and art for that matter. Engagement -> Reward.

Particularly though, at least speaking for myself, I also want to know how that armor or lack thereof functions! But, what is the trade off? Do I think Sejuani might need to make a trip to Sports Chalet and get some heavy winter gear? Possibly.. BUT! I also want her to be wearing something more interesting than a Columbia snowboarding jacket and I also want her to read clearly when I play her. That's a whole lot in the equation.

There's trade-offs to everything, and sometimes we don't even know those trade-offs on a conscious level. If you saw Sejuani in a head to toe outfit, or heavily armor-clad, or maybe beefier, well, that actually presents a slew of other visual problems to work out. We then have problems with whether we could tell her gender or not. The boar (Let's take get a betting game going to see if you can guess the boar's name) might indicate, given another armor or outfit situation, that she's a guy. Thickening her up, while addressing how a chick could wield such a weapon comes at a risk of her looking like a male also. We wanted her to be fit and vicious. Adding particular types of clothing, mass, armor, etc might detract from that... also! You haven't seen all her skins yet! Maybe you'll find something cool in there! =D

Personally? I like the more "reasonably" clad gals, but hey, that's why I gravitate towards champs like Leona. But heck, while Sejuani has her own visual style, and unique challenges, I am not opposed to her being taken in the direction she has been. I think our goal is to provide a rewarding experience, sometimes we have to suspend our otherwise pesky disbelief and roll with it. Will we push limits in the future? Yes. Will we also work within pre-established motifs, structures, archetypes and the tendencies for the unconscious mind to latch onto particular tropes as long as we find the situation appropriate? Yes.

Regardless, I'm not sure if this is all making any sense. I'm pretty tired. Also, ya know. Mashed potatoes. Either way, I enjoy these discussions and I'd like to keep having them. There's a lot we go through over here when we design champs artistically and believe me, nothing you're saying hasn't been discussed or not thought over. In the end, we're having fun, and we hope you are too!
IRONSTYLUS YOU ARE ALIVE!!!! LOOK AT THIS THREAD!

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=19570698#post19570698


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zakaran

Member

01-12-2012

I wasn't always giant boobs for its own, but when his brownie, it all for its juicy self.


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Contagioned

Senior Member

01-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loc View Post
And I thank you for the consideration, sir.

Also, -70? Really? I'm not sure I like what that says about this community. @_@
It's like I said, society/this community likes the hourglass/pretty girl.


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Yummines

Member

01-12-2012

i like how nobody even mentioned Kayle

she wears full body armor all the time, in all of her skins

a lot of people still think that she is a guy

i think thats what Riot wants to avoid


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FairladyZ

Senior Member

01-12-2012

i think Sejuani is pretty decent, looking forward to seeing Lissandra, the Ice Dervish

PS: offtopic, if the leaked info of Sejuani's passive applying slow on hit is true, maybe Ashe should get some manacost buffs to her Q, seeing how Sejuani gets it for free? :O


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Veissdrachen

Senior Member

01-12-2012

But fat guys have Gragas as their mascot. Yo.


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WelcomeToTarget

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Senior Member

01-12-2012

Here's my two cents. Just because a lot of female champions have splash art that is skimpy or w/e doesn't mean Riot doesn't have variety.

You wanna know why most of those models/skins/splash arts are looking like that. They are visually appealing. I have no problem with Leona looking bad ass in her armor. Her Valkyrie skin/splash is one of the best in the game IMO. Just because Sejuani has some cleavage doesn't mean you need to cry about it.

Iron Stylus is right about the splash though. If they went with something different she could probably have a completely different look but with that splash she needs to look like that.


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LuciedBR

Senior Member

01-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
That being said, yes, often in the video game industry, and the entertainment industry, there is a "standardization" of female form. I'm as guilty of it as any other artist when designing. Leona is a tall curvy lady which in my mind is "idealized". We're artists, we like "ideal" and sometimes default to it. (REMEMBER! I'm keeping "Ideal" in QUOTES! "Ideal" is not an "Ideal" term for what I'm "Ideally" trying to explain) That isn't to say that our lexicon is or should be limited to a particular scope, but let's be honest, a lot of natural human tendency which is often hardwired into us makes us gravitate towards particular biological attributes. I'm not trying to defend that gravitation, but I am saying that we are many times inexorably drawn to it... no art pun intended.

Let's also consider something. Readability. In the game, the characters are fairly small, nyez? So, we do often I believe have to make sure we're making sure to make sure that the figure is readable as a girl or guy. How do we do this? Well, proportion, accentuation, exaggeration, etc. Want the feminine form to read in a game? Welp, guess what, it might have to be a bit more famine and/or stylized than usual to read at the proper distance and keep readable when moving. That's just making sure we cover the basics of simple silhouette recognition. If we make her too broad, you might mistake Sejuani for a male, that'd be, ya know, not what we want.
I am not sure you needed to go quite so far as Sejuani's art to accomplish your goals here.

For easy demonstration by comparison, I will make a comparison with another MOBA game: Demigod. It is safely in the grave now, so I can reasonably say you won't be offended. The character is Sedna (http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/features/46258/Demigod-Origins-Sedna), a beast riding girl from a frozen region who wields a large weapon. She is a healer/support, so there's little problem with originality here.

The first thing I want to note is that we players are not particularly observant. Sedna's clothes are quite form fitting and show a feminine figure--rather too form fitting for the supposed coldness of the region. However, because of the white fur trims on her parka's hood and and the ends of her sleeves, we are likely to assume that the clothes are warm and thick, even though they are not, and they leave ample cleavage. Compare this to Sejuani: The fur trims are dark grey instead of white and are hidden behind pieces of armor. She has a glaringly bare midriff. The first impression is easily that of someone who is obviously not suited for cold weather. While Sedna is better clothed, it's not so much better to the point that she has suitable cold weather clothing. The compromise of realism is more tastefully disguised and likely to escape notice.

The second thing I want to note is that we are easily distracted. From the two artworks, we can see that both girls have a generous region of bare skin running at least most of the length of the thigh. However, with Sedna, we can see a heavy fur boot with a large region of what appears to be white fur trim on one of her legs. With Sejuani, the knee and below are blocked by her mount. Thus, Sedna's image gives an illusion of warmth while still showing a lot of leg, while Sejuani's entire impression is that her legs are not well covered.

Conclusion: We need more subtle sexy pictures because 1. we want to see sexy females, 2. we would like to not make our ogling too obvious, and 3. we're easily fooled.