Sejuani and female champs

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Tridacna Gigas

Member

01-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
I've yet to have time to read those articles but I shall do so when I get the chance.

Also.. don't make me get into how Leona's heels actually are a paragon of function and classy design!

Anywhoozle, funny thing is, when I was doing a bit of work on Sejuani, we made an effort to make sure she didn't look dainty. In the art spotlight you're looking at a very action-y pose which may make her diminish because that boar is just so ready to throttle you.

That being said, yes, often in the video game industry, and the entertainment industry, there is a "standardization" of female form. I'm as guilty of it as any other artist when designing. Leona is a tall curvy lady which in my mind is "idealized". We're artists, we like "ideal" and sometimes default to it. (REMEMBER! I'm keeping "Ideal" in QUOTES! "Ideal" is not an "Ideal" term for what I'm "Ideally" trying to explain) That isn't to say that our lexicon is or should be limited to a particular scope, but let's be honest, a lot of natural human tendency which is often hardwired into us makes us gravitate towards particular biological attributes. I'm not trying to defend that gravitation, but I am saying that we are many times inexorably drawn to it... no art pun intended.

Let's also consider something. Readability. In the game, the characters are fairly small, nyez? So, we do often I believe have to make sure we're making sure to make sure that the figure is readable as a girl or guy. How do we do this? Well, proportion, accentuation, exaggeration, etc. Want the feminine form to read in a game? Welp, guess what, it might have to be a bit more famine and/or stylized than usual to read at the proper distance and keep readable when moving. That's just making sure we cover the basics of simple silhouette recognition. If we make her too broad, you might mistake Sejuani for a male, that'd be, ya know, not what we want.

Now, that said, and I may be at bit too full of microwave mashed potatoes at this point, but I do have certain issues with certain champs and their body types. I do flinch here and there when I consider the logistics that certain clothing might entail. However, as an artist, as a gamer, I'm looking for something that's rewarding to my eye. Sometimes that might be a dynamic silhouette, sometimes maybe the nuanced movement of a character, possibly the hardwired biological aspect, or any other pleasing imagery. As a gamer and as an artist, I want a visual reward. That's a lot of what gaming is and art for that matter. Engagement -> Reward.

Particularly though, at least speaking for myself, I also want to know how that armor or lack thereof functions! But, what is the trade off? Do I think Sejuani might need to make a trip to Sports Chalet and get some heavy winter gear? Possibly.. BUT! I also want her to be wearing something more interesting than a Columbia snowboarding jacket and I also want her to read clearly when I play her. That's a whole lot in the equation.

There's trade-offs to everything, and sometimes we don't even know those trade-offs on a conscious level. If you saw Sejuani in a head to toe outfit, or heavily armor-clad, or maybe beefier, well, that actually presents a slew of other visual problems to work out. We then have problems with whether we could tell her gender or not. The boar (Let's take get a betting game going to see if you can guess the boar's name) might indicate, given another armor or outfit situation, that she's a guy. Thickening her up, while addressing how a chick could wield such a weapon comes at a risk of her looking like a male also. We wanted her to be fit and vicious. Adding particular types of clothing, mass, armor, etc might detract from that... also! You haven't seen all her skins yet! Maybe you'll find something cool in there! =D

Personally? I like the more "reasonably" clad gals, but hey, that's why I gravitate towards champs like Leona. But heck, while Sejuani has her own visual style, and unique challenges, I am not opposed to her being taken in the direction she has been. I think our goal is to provide a rewarding experience, sometimes we have to suspend our otherwise pesky disbelief and roll with it. Will we push limits in the future? Yes. Will we also work within pre-established motifs, structures, archetypes and the tendencies for the unconscious mind to latch onto particular tropes as long as we find the situation appropriate? Yes.

Regardless, I'm not sure if this is all making any sense. I'm pretty tired. Also, ya know. Mashed potatoes. Either way, I enjoy these discussions and I'd like to keep having them. There's a lot we go through over here when we design champs artistically and believe me, nothing you're saying hasn't been discussed or not thought over. In the end, we're having fun, and we hope you are too!
except its always overexaggerated. Female adults always have the same body types and males always have pecs + a 6 pack(unless you're Gragas)

I'm all for sexy champs but they're way too overused. Those body types aren't regular


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Aria Sachou

Senior Member

01-12-2012

I just made this thread for lolz
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=19639132#post19639132


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Captain Jaguar

Senior Member

01-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaddar View Post
look at Metroid for NES, when we played it as kids, the whole word thought of Samus as a Male, (that is a big part of her legacy after all) but when we learned at the ending of Metroid she was female, she had long hair and a bikini/jumpsuit with very clear woman features

same with the GB and the SNES versions. she had to show very clear features to let the player know she was female.
Holy ****, your argument is moving on to 8 bit pixeled girls. "SHEs a girl because theres one more pixel portraying out near her head,by her chest, and its colored blue"

FFS Thats the saddest example for sensationalism ever.

Let me ask you this, If you were an 8-bit designer, then what would you have done? Made all her armor fall off, and have no physical attribute to make her look feminine?


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frostyDINJA13

Senior Member

01-12-2012

OP is fat.


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Contagioned

Senior Member

01-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Jaguar View Post
Holy ****, your argument is moving on to 8 bit pixeled girls. "SHEs a girl because theres one more pixel portraying out near her head,by her chest, and its colored blue"

FFS Thats the saddest example for sensationalism ever.

Let me ask you this, If you were an 8-bit designer, then what would you have done? Made all her armor fall off, and have no physical attribute to make her look feminine?
Did they have to make her wear a bikini at the end of the game?


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CataclysmCrash

Senior Member

01-12-2012

The only problem I can see is that she is wearing like no clothing.

At least Ashe wears like a cloak or something.

I mean for the love of God put on a coat we don't want those C cups freezing off.


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Muhlum

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Member

01-12-2012

holy walls of text batman >.>


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Loc

Senior Member

01-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaddar View Post
as an Ilustrator myself I know there is a reason for the female characters have that body type on comics / games etc.

you can have 100 body types for a male and still looks like a male, but with females is a lot more complicated, you have less room to work with (boob size, hips, waist, and on less degree, legs and arms)... but you can't change neck size, shoulder chest like with males, because you risk your character not look female at all due to 3D modelling, drawing style, media and definition of the image and even perception from the viewer.

just think of it as if all drawings by definitions were male (like stick drawings being the most simple example), and the psyche has a limited ammount of features to distinguish something as "female".. (just try to temember how many grily emos and traps are out there), so you have to make a very clear definition of those features for your character to look female (for example: if she has no boobs, she has to have thin waist)

there are many ways to draw a dragon, but very few ones to draw a swan or a horse, same with males and females you can't change features on swans too much before it looking like some other bird.
Also and if you see a dragon, you'd think of it as a male, unless some very specific features.


basic point being, as all drawings are by definition male, you can play around more easily with the features (think of mundo and fiddlesticks), but the room to modify female features is a lot more limited, because you could even end up with somethin aking to, yes, Ezreal
I'm actually going to school trying to get an Illustration degree. :P

I once saw blogged by the illustrator for Johnny Wander a website that had an anatomical reference collection of athlete bodies. It was really interesting and helpful, and I'd share it now if I could. :P

It's true that there are clear gender indicators for women, but (in general) we assume there are none for men because, as this is an androcentric society, we hold that men are the default and that women are deviations from it. While I understand sort of what you're getting at, I respectfully disagree. As there are a number of subtle indicators (as you listed, bust, waist, hips, arms and legs), these elements can be used to clearly identify gender IN ADDITION TO the other nonbiological elements you mentioned such as hair and clothing (and in LoL, there is certainly a robust assortment of hair and clothing). I think that not only is it a lot easier to clearly identify champions as women than you're implying (and besides just making them all supermodels), but that there's nothing wrong with having slightly more androgynous champions as well.

But again, this is just my personal dissenting opinion, and I respect and understand your point concerning illustrating women and the variety within.


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Kawaiido

Senior Member

01-12-2012

You don't need to look like a steroid induced freak to be strong, OP. If she was rippling with muscles that would look strong, but I would think muscle bound, steroid infused beast and have a hard time believing it was a female.


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BelligerentGnu

Senior Member

01-12-2012

Ironstylus, I'll give you the massive concession of not going about her bikini-bra armor

I don't really care about that

I dont care about reading the in-game model as female either. Old argument.

What I want to know is, in the splash art, WHERE ARE HER BICEPS?

Seriously, man. it defies all belief. It is so bad it actually takes me out of the game to see it.

You cannot lift a weapon like that with twigs for arms. You cannot ride a crazy pig-horse with no core strength.

Do you really think that a character cannot read as female if she has muscles?