Sejuani and female champs

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ClyffSol

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Recruiter

01-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by General Farsight View Post
I understand your point, and I agree with it to some extent. However, I fear a lot of people simply complain about their appearance and either forget or simply ignore their backstories and personalities. When I play with Caitlyn, Janna, Vayne or whatever other female character, just by hearing their quotes it's noticeable that they aren't simply eyecandy. The way they dress should not be that important.

Once again this does not seem to be a problem with male characters, since Tryndamere can go around shirtless without anyone complaining. Everyone knows that he is a badass barbarian king. Why can't the female characters receive a similar treatment? Why must they be simply defined by what they wear?
Yes. It's true.
For only $2.95 a minute, I will leave, you, breathless.

:I


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Yaddar

Senior Member

01-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Jaguar View Post
Samus is hardly wearing a bikini, it's a full space outfit, even zero-suit is a FULL SKINNED Space outfit.

I'm starting to think this thread is just for womanizers to rant about nonsensical points.
Clearly reasons for what they do, and although they seem dishonorable for you, Like i said before, I've never heard of a girl who plays this game (and I know quite a few) that said ANYTHING about any of the characters figures.

Think of it like this. I'm weak constitution, and incredibly underweight (120 pounds at 5'7'', And its actually medical, I can't raise that number, so i look bony and scrawny) Ever think that Maybe I like to raise my esteem level by playing visually perfect Champions, that somehow I'm connecting to the champions and Being them in a Phycological way, and feeling better about my own image because of it?
look at Metroid for NES, when we played it as kids, the whole word thought of Samus as a Male, (that is a big part of her legacy after all) but when we learned at the ending of Metroid she was female, she had long hair and a bikini/jumpsuit with very clear woman features

same with the GB and the SNES versions. she had to show very clear features to let the player know she was female.


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Psychotic Alice

Senior Member

01-12-2012

i dont mind some cute loli champs (not yordels)
example would be

http://calamitousintents.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/moe-1940-fate_stay_night-ikegami_akane-illyasviel_von_einzbern-type_moon.jpg

i cant upload it for some reason so ya just gonna give u link


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Captain Jaguar

Senior Member

01-12-2012

As a side note, this reminds me of the Stir around Suckerpunch. The Females were all sensuous, but if anyone really watched the movie, they soon realised that the girls could have been naked and it wouldn't have mattered, It's the image of a physically strong and elegant women, a graceful, Beautiful (according to society, which i agree) yet swift and deadly, superhuman, almost. Of course, people with a not so level head only think that producers make characters that are sexy, to be sexy.

It's much more then that, and if people really thought what these champions stood for, I would think they would realise that the champions, sensious, are also deadly and portray an image of a CHAMPION, an achieveable figure, but also a superhuman figure.


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ch1ncm3x

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Junior Member

01-12-2012

You sure are silly


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Sherrif

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01-12-2012

It is also called the "male gaze"

Everybody looks WITH men and AT women.

The male gaze goes all the way back when women were queens and princesses. You look with men, watch a movie and notice when you a male character looks somewhere you wonder where he is looking. And women are looked at, it's a stone engraved part of our culture. You cannot change it by yourself, but once you understand what it is you can help change the future.

Not... You can't change it, it's engraved at many cultures. Some in different ways. Middle eastern countries have it but in a slightly different (and better for you I guess). You know, where only their husband can see any part of their wife. (you heard the "Dat Ankle" joke?)

It is engraved in your mind, and you must accept it. Saying things like "my parents raised me the wrong way" is childish and laughable. It's in movies, it's in media, and it's in games.

also

Imagine a female Veigar, the only ways to note that it is female is through the voice acting and reading the lore. Through all the robes nobody could see it. Could you do Pink robes? No, that would be objectification and it would be saying all women are characterized by the color pink, stereotyping. So how would you depict it differently to make it into a female?

Female fiddlesticks? Draw it, I ask you to draw it, model it, and animate it. Then give it a voice. Then realize that something is not right. Does a female scarecrow need boobs? Then what does it need to make it a girl? The ability to carry a child, so... we have to model female genitalia in order to create a realistic female fiddle. Objectification.

Sorry, but it has been explained, if you cannot understand it, uninstall you are probably not even worth matchmaking's busy schedule.


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IronStylus

Sr. Concept Artist

01-12-2012
1 of 21 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loc View Post
So I was going to post something in another thread, but it got closed before I managed to. It was essentially about how the OP was disappointed that Sejuani doesn't look strong and wears (relatively) little clothing. But I felt like this was a point worth making, and so I'm just going to put it out there.

People were responding with comments like, "You're expecting realism out of a fantasy game?" and generally responded very negatively (which I found completely baffling), but in general I think they were missing the point the OP was trying to make. It's not that it's unrealistic that she's so small. Tryndamere really couldn't swing that sword with one hand like he does realistically. The problem is that this is yet another female champ that has the exact same body type as every other female champ, that body type being thin, frail, and busty. The skimpy clothes is just gravy to this insult, but seeing as she's a barbarian-type lady and riding a giant boar I think we can let that one go.

Now, I like Sejuani's design, from what I've see. She's got a unique weapon among the champs (keeping in line with one of my favorite features of LoL, that almost no champions share the same weapon), she looks good, she's got an awesome boar mount (also awesome and distinct in it's own way from the other champs). But I, similarly to the person who posted that other thread, think that she should look strong, and that's a very reasonable thing to want. She must be a strong lady to lift her flail and shield, or even ride her mount. But she doesn't look it. None of the female champs look particularly strong. But the male champs are not only more varied, but their body types support their character. Strong warrior champs are big. Makes sense, right? Casters tend to be thinner. There's a lot of variety among the male champs in terms of body type. But all the female champs are just lingerie models, regardless of the size of their weapon or the weight of their armor (I'm looking at you and your plate mail heels, Leona).

This is a problem with most games, and while I love League of Legends, they're very guilty of falling into this trend. Men are varied and appropriately proportioned, women are thin and busting out of their tops regardless of who they are or what they do. I really wish Riot would change this. Their designs are fun and interesting and varied (and only seem to get better and better, go Riot!), and it's completely within their power to change this particular aspect of character design, but they never seem to. It's hugely disappointing, and there's really no need for it.

These popped up on Kotaku just recently, and while they're not written for the same reason I'm commenting on this, they're about the same issue, and definitely worth a read.

http://kotaku.com/5868595/nerds-and-male-privilege
http://kotaku.com/5873885/nerds-and-...-the-arguments
I've yet to have time to read those articles but I shall do so when I get the chance.

Also.. don't make me get into how Leona's heels actually are a paragon of function and classy design!

Anywhoozle, funny thing is, when I was doing a bit of work on Sejuani, we made an effort to make sure she didn't look dainty. In the art spotlight you're looking at a very action-y pose which may make her diminish because that boar is just so ready to throttle you.

That being said, yes, often in the video game industry, and the entertainment industry, there is a "standardization" of female form. I'm as guilty of it as any other artist when designing. Leona is a tall curvy lady which in my mind is "idealized". We're artists, we like "ideal" and sometimes default to it. (REMEMBER! I'm keeping "Ideal" in QUOTES! "Ideal" is not an "Ideal" term for what I'm "Ideally" trying to explain) That isn't to say that our lexicon is or should be limited to a particular scope, but let's be honest, a lot of natural human tendency which is often hardwired into us makes us gravitate towards particular biological attributes. I'm not trying to defend that gravitation, but I am saying that we are many times inexorably drawn to it... no art pun intended.

Let's also consider something. Readability. In the game, the characters are fairly small, nyez? So, we do often I believe have to make sure we're making sure to make sure that the figure is readable as a girl or guy. How do we do this? Well, proportion, accentuation, exaggeration, etc. Want the feminine form to read in a game? Welp, guess what, it might have to be a bit more famine and/or stylized than usual to read at the proper distance and keep readable when moving. That's just making sure we cover the basics of simple silhouette recognition. If we make her too broad, you might mistake Sejuani for a male, that'd be, ya know, not what we want.

Now, that said, and I may be at bit too full of microwave mashed potatoes at this point, but I do have certain issues with certain champs and their body types. I do flinch here and there when I consider the logistics that certain clothing might entail. However, as an artist, as a gamer, I'm looking for something that's rewarding to my eye. Sometimes that might be a dynamic silhouette, sometimes maybe the nuanced movement of a character, possibly the hardwired biological aspect, or any other pleasing imagery. As a gamer and as an artist, I want a visual reward. That's a lot of what gaming is and art for that matter. Engagement -> Reward.

Particularly though, at least speaking for myself, I also want to know how that armor or lack thereof functions! But, what is the trade off? Do I think Sejuani might need to make a trip to Sports Chalet and get some heavy winter gear? Possibly.. BUT! I also want her to be wearing something more interesting than a Columbia snowboarding jacket and I also want her to read clearly when I play her. That's a whole lot in the equation.

There's trade-offs to everything, and sometimes we don't even know those trade-offs on a conscious level. If you saw Sejuani in a head to toe outfit, or heavily armor-clad, or maybe beefier, well, that actually presents a slew of other visual problems to work out. We then have problems with whether we could tell her gender or not. The boar (Let's take get a betting game going to see if you can guess the boar's name) might indicate, given another armor or outfit situation, that she's a guy. Thickening her up, while addressing how a chick could wield such a weapon comes at a risk of her looking like a male also. We wanted her to be fit and vicious. Adding particular types of clothing, mass, armor, etc might detract from that... also! You haven't seen all her skins yet! Maybe you'll find something cool in there! =D

Personally? I like the more "reasonably" clad gals, but hey, that's why I gravitate towards champs like Leona. But heck, while Sejuani has her own visual style, and unique challenges, I am not opposed to her being taken in the direction she has been. I think our goal is to provide a rewarding experience, sometimes we have to suspend our otherwise pesky disbelief and roll with it. Will we push limits in the future? Yes. Will we also work within pre-established motifs, structures, archetypes and the tendencies for the unconscious mind to latch onto particular tropes as long as we find the situation appropriate? Yes.

Regardless, I'm not sure if this is all making any sense. I'm pretty tired. Also, ya know. Mashed potatoes. Either way, I enjoy these discussions and I'd like to keep having them. There's a lot we go through over here when we design champs artistically and believe me, nothing you're saying hasn't been discussed or not thought over. In the end, we're having fun, and we hope you are too!


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Yaddar

Senior Member

01-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by DustySniper View Post
When I think of a barbarian I think of a veteran warrior. Which from personal experience is a different look than you would expect. When you see someone who has been to war its their eyes that always tell you something and the way they carry themselves. A vet can always "smell" out another vet. I think this is a little hard to represent in fantasy characters so they adapt this with things like being shirtless bad asses.,
yep something like that, and it also has to do with the classics, ninjas never looked like we think of them, but mass media (like from the black and white days to our current days)has given us some very strong stereotypes (of everything!) which, combined with our pre-set perceptions, makes more complicated to design a character than it should be, and the difficulty rises when you have to work with a female, (because, like I said, you have less room to play around)


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Sarif Fice

Senior Member

01-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iauaruk View Post
Leona. Tristana.Annie.Poppy
Karma.


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AlphaPhoenix

Senior Member

01-12-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
~snip~
Well put IronStylus.