Really, Riot Games?

First Riot Post
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Vichar

Senior Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrinking Violet View Post
Profit entails balancing risk and cost. Presumably, the financial risk of the tribunal producing a handful of false positives is less than the cost of improving and debugging the system. You yourself were just arguing that the engineering cost of improving the tribunal was too high.

As a prudent person, I won't take the risk of being one of the few people you slight.
Actually, we should try for a little more precision here. He didn't say "the engineering cost of improving the tribunal is too high". He said that the cost of altering the Tribunal process to specifically appease 0.7% of the player base (the majority of whom have demonstrated they shouldn't be interacting with other people online), isn't a good place to put their engineering resources. See the difference?

Spending money on features that make most players happy = good. (Tribunal as it is today. It's working, whatever some people may claim. If it wasn't working it would have been pulled from the shelf a long time ago because the uproar from the majority of players would have been deafening. )

Spending money trying to educate a very, very small minority about simple manners = wasteful.

All this talk about being falsely convicted is such theory-crafting. I don't buy the arguments for even a split second. It's so silly, if I weren't such a fan of philosophical discussion I wouldn't even bother with it. Show me proof someone that was falsely convicted, contacted Riot, and was turned away, and I might, might take you seriously. It's all such bunk. I consider the probability of me being falsely convicted to be, for practical purposes, zero. As in, no chance.


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RiotKiddington

Platform Engineer

01-07-2012
8 of 8 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vichar View Post
Actually, we should try for a little more precision here. He didn't say "the engineering cost of improving the tribunal is too high". He said that the cost of altering the Tribunal process specifically appease 0.7% of the player base (the majority of whom have demonstrate they shouldn't be interacting with other people online), isn't a good place to put their engineering resources. See the difference?

Spending money on features that make most players happy = good. (Tribunal as it is today. It's working, whatever some people may claim. If it wasn't working it would have been pulled from the shelf a long time ago because the uproar from the majority of players would have been deafening. )

Spending money trying to educate a very, very small minority about simple manners = wasteful.
Thanks for stating what I was going to say
It is nice talking to you all, I need go sleep now. We can continue discuss this tomorrow.


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Emailsupport7346

Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotKiddington View Post
There is a simpler reason to trust Riot’s internal audit: PROFIT.

Riot want to make profit, and more people it bans the less potential profit Riot will make.
So it is in Riot’s best interest to only ban players that Riot deemed harmful. Based on this logic, there are motivation and financial incentive for Riot to make sure the Tribunal work as accurately as possible. It is also why Riot places so many additional internal checks.
Seems like you try to sell it to us as a "simple reason". But if you consider some math its not that simple.

How many harmless banned players would it take to make up for those THOUSANDS you could save from paying a few service employes?

I doubt you have to worry about a few thousand players when you can put aside a few ten thousands of dollar monthly on the other hand.

I'm not implying it must be that way... just showing that your "reason" is not as "simple" as u think... and I don't consider the current sanctioning system trustworthy. Else I would have spent a 20€ PSC I received on Riot Points.


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Vormulac Unsleep

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Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vichar View Post
As for "You know what you did", well the problem is even if you told someone what they did, they would still deny what they did. That's what Riot says they experienced again and again.
And I don't deny that would happen. It would. Probably in a lot of cases. But again, once Riot has given you the information and made it clear that you have broken the rules and have a second chance, the discussion is over and it is up to you to change. If you continue to protest, that's what the form-letter is there for.


Quote:
As for sadistic people just clicking Punish, it's a really sad, sad person that gets pleasure out of that. I doubt there are enough Tribunal people out there doing this. Also, Riot has already said that their system takes into account people that keep getting cases wrong. I suspect this means if you are just clicking Punish on everyone, you'll eventually have your Tribunal access revoked, or at least your vote will receive a lower weight.
It happens. People are scum, as a general rule. As more time goes on, as stated in my response to Kiddington, I tend to click pardon more and more as it becomes clear there isnt enough evidence for most cases to be punished, and as it becomes clear that the focus is entirely on chat without any consideration of what circumstances brought about the context of that chat. And more and more, I get less IP the more I click pardon.

Quote:
As for lies told in chat to pad logs for a report, I've never encountered this. You say you encountered it so, fine, you encountered it. I'm curious as to what was said. How does someone convince the Tribunal reader of something? If I see someone accusing a teammate of feeding, and that person has a bad score, it still doesn't make me punish. I only punish for intentional feeding if that person themselves in chat states the clear intention to feed.
I have encountered it a lot. I have personally had a bad game, where I wasn't intentional feeding, only to have someone spam "Vormulac is intentionally feeding, he said he would in pregame chat, plz report" in the /all chat, when nothing of the like happened. And that's only one example. I'd say this kind of thing happens in 1/3rd of my games. And every. single. game. has at least one person who spams "report so and so for so and so" despite there being no reason to do so other than someone is angry they are losing. And half the time, someone responds that they will do exactly that, and then mocks whatever player is the target in postgame chat with "reported, ******" or something similar.

Quote:
Nobody can make you type insults to other people in game. Only repeatedly doing this leads me to click punish for verbal harrassment.
Nobody can make you have to read anything anyone types - or care about it. I am only concerned with actual game-affecting behaviour. In the case of chat box nonsense, it only becomes an issue when someone becomes emotionally involved with it instead of ignoring it - which is, in the end, a choice.

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Nobody can make you leave the game or go AFK. How does padding the chat with lies make you buy 6 boots of speed or no items at all, and have zero kills/deaths/assists?
Agreed, although its easily possible to not intentionally get no kills etc. But 6 boots of speed? Yeah, punish. 3 zeals and a boots of mobility? Maybe someone is just not very good at the game. Or maybe they announced their intention to feed in pregame chat where no one can read the log. It's circumstantial to decide these things and you can only go on a case by case basis. And this is a problem with the amount of information given.

Quote:
These are the offenses I click punish for. How are you going to trick me with lies in the chat log? I'm really only interested in what you, the accused, had to say. Nobody made you make those racist / sexist / insulting remarks to your teammates. Oh, they provoked you to it, huh? Well, you still broke the Summoner's Code. What does it matter what those other players said? You can report them just as easily as they reported you.
Almost a good point. ALmost. What if they provoked you in pregame chat? What if they said nothing, but intentionally disrupted the game without ever speaking a word? Maybe they warded the entire base. Maybe they ran off at full hp and let you die in lane repeatedly, intentionally, when you expected backup, and then said something like "lol" in chat? Not enough information to know, again. And in that case, only the real victim gets the punishment, for typing words in a box. While the person who actually disrupted the game in an unignorable way walks away free and laughing.

Quote:
By the way, it's this kind of weak argument that I'm referring to VU. It's like you're reaching for an argument, but that argument doesn't make any sense. What the other players in the chat log said has close to zero bearing on whether or not I hit punish. I am interested only in what the accused had to say. In essence, that's the accused person's chance of defending themselves. If they really didn't misbehave, the chat log will exonerate them
I've pretty much covered this - the chat log is not the end or beginning of knowing if someone did something wrong or what that thing was. I could go in a game right now, ruin it for 4 other people, and leave NO incriminating information in the chat log, build, or scores information given. Easily. People do it all the time. And then when someone is angry because ONCE AGAIN they lost a game due to something completely out of their control, just to amuse some jerkoff who knows he can't be proven guilty, they get a ban because they don't turn the other cheek like the victim Riot wants them to be. Inexcusable and unacceptable.


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Bilun

Senior Member

01-07-2012

God these threads need to stop. They are built on people who feel entitled to act like a complete ******* without reprecussions and those who irrationally fear that they'll end up in that 1.4% despite having done nothing wrong.


Note first bans are almost never permanent. Suppose tribunal were entirely random(worse case scenario), and there was a static 1.4% chance of a given player getting sent to it. Getting sent twice is a .014^2=.000196= about a .02% chance-that's a 1 in 5000 chance. In all honesty the odds would be worse as a second ban is far from guaranteed permanent(third ban is down to a 1 in 364000 chance).


That is is it were random, and frankly a tested and audited system designed to weed out a specific subgroup of players(misbehavors), even if perfect is likely to have DRASTICALLY better results then the above situation. Being that the random sampling is 1 in 5000 the very worst I doubt the chance of a false positive is worse then 1 in 50k-100k players(I think it's pretty reasonable to assume a system that has been monitored and only banned 1.4% of players has at least 10-20x the accuracy of banning a random sampling of players). Also as mentioned above that's assuming a second ban is permanent(not necessarily true).


The point is if a player is actually behaving properly the odds of them getting their account permanently banned is miniscule.

Don't let the players argueing the flaws in tribunal fool you- worry about getting banned without doing anything isn't their real issue. They know they have done things which Riot doesn't approve of and think Riot's rules are too draconian. They are the players who feel entitled to the ability to trashtalk, mock, and curse at whomever they want without consequence-because the general anonymity of the internet has let them do so until now.


anyway done with my little rant. I for one will continue to spent money on this game without worry as I know I will never get banned as I don't rage at, curse at, or attempt to belittle other players in chat, nor do I AFK/leave/intetionally feed.


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Shrinking Violet

Senior Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vichar View Post
Actually, we should try for a little more precision here. He didn't say "the engineering cost of improving the tribunal is too high". He said that the cost of altering the Tribunal process to specifically appease 0.7% of the player base (the majority of whom have demonstrated they shouldn't be interacting with other people online), isn't a good place to put their engineering resources. See the difference?
The point was that these features and bugs don't just effect 0.7% of the player base, so no, I don't follow your line of reasoning.

Quote:
All this talk about being falsely convicted is such theory-crafting. I don't buy the arguments for even a split second. It's so silly, if I weren't such a fan of philosophical discussion I wouldn't even bother with it. Show me proof someone that was falsely convicted, contacted Riot, and was turned away, and I might, might take you seriously. It's all such bunk. I consider the probability of me being falsely convicted to be, for practical purposes, zero. As in, no chance.
Are you familiar with the phrase "catch 22"? How can someone prove their innocence when Riot won't release the necessary data?


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Vichar

Senior Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vormulac Unsleep View Post
I would posit that a great deal more than 0.7% of players would be impacted by Riot showing themselves to be as good as their words about their concern and care for their playerbase, by taking the time and resources to deal with us in a less faceless and totalitarian manner. Taking the time to implement a better system can only look good for your company, and show that you mean what you say, and that you do want to take the time to deal with us as if we are people and not a statistic representing projected quarterly income. I know it would certainly create a better impression than the daily, hourly threads about unfair bans, about copypasted emails in reply to legitimate concerns, and the "I'm always right" responses other of your representatives have unfortunately felt compelled to post in your name have.
Yet this is exactly why you are incorrect. Your whole thread thus far has (by necessity) been from your point of view. I claim your point of view is skewed. Look at the innocuous post from Teal just a few post back. He asks innocently, "If you just behave, why are you afraid of getting banned?" He's exactly right. There's no chance of it.

Just because you happen to agree with your opinion, doesn't mean many others do. Just because you have a few supporters in this thread, mostly others who have been banned in the past, doesn't mean that you can reliably say that most LoL players believe, as you seem to, that the Tribunal is so flawed it needs an overhaul. Ironically, I myself agreed with you that people should be told what they were doing wrong specifically UNTIL I read your thread in detail. (You can review any number of other posts where you can find me stating this.) It is only after reading pages of your arguments that I've finally been forced to conclude that, the few sincere people that really want to improve their behavior do not justify the cost of taking the gobs of time necessary to educate the great majority who will simply not understand or agree with the specific reasons anyway. You have shown me that people that are banned won't understand why they were banned, and telling them why is going to be a colossal waste of time. Heck, I can't even convince you of simple things that should be evident to you through common sense.

Most of us already think Riot cares about its playerbase (they created the Tribunal to address the #1 problem I had with the game. I even convinced my girlfriend to play the game again after she quit due to being harrassed. She started playing again over Christmas break and she commented that is WAY, WAY better than it used to be. So I'm not the only one that thinks so. If anything, she's more objective than either of us because all she remembers is how bad it was before Tribunal; she'd never heard of Tribunal before I told her about it a few weeks ago, and when she figured out how it worked she thought it was brilliant and wanted to judge some cases herself. I digress.)

RiotK is not trying to paint Riot as an unfeeling company that just cares about the bottom line. If you read carefully, you will see he's saying that the bottom line and player satisfaction happen to be aligned in this case. Even if you completely mistrusted them, you can trust their desire for Profit to benefit you as a player. Well, benefit a polite player, anyway.

Riot doesn't have to further create the impression they are a good company because most of us already have that opinion. You have no statistic to show otherwise. The forums are filled with qq because every time someone wants to qq they come to the forums. But I watch G. Discussion carefully. Every time a thread thanking Riot for this free game comes up, its upvoted into the stratosphere. Every time someone makes a thread about how considerate Riot is, it's up-voted into the hundreds, sometimes thousands.


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Vormulac Unsleep

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vichar View Post
My point is, rebelling against authority is as enslaving as simply doing what you are told. Both extremes are not productive and don't teach you anything.
Agreed, and that is why I am not discussing mindless rebellion, here. There are two options with rebelling against authority in a rational manner: one is that you manage, through perseverance and refusal to succumb combined with education and patience, to change the mind of the authority. The other is that you at least have educated yourself, put yourself in a position where only the irrational can disagree with you, and learned a lesson for the future on how to deal with the situation. That second is of course the likely outcome, in most cases. As my mother always said "you can't reason with the unreasonable".

But I am always willing to try to, before I'll ever be willing to bend knee.

Quote:
They are saying, if you're rude to your fellow players, they have the right to eject you from the game. They don't have to give you warnings. They don't have to give you limited suspensions before a permaban.
And I agree with all of that. They do have every right to do everything you listed - and more. I've read the Terms of Use. They have EVERY right to behave that way. But if that's how it will be, then they have no right to expect us to take them at their word that we are anything more than a projected income statistic to them, and every word about caring, closeness with the community, and respect is out the door on principle. They have the right to do those things, but they don't -have- to do them. It is the choice that is telling.

Blizzard Entertainment, the ****tiest game company I have ever had the displeasure of dealing with (and who I used to be a massive fan of), will tell you why you were banned, and give you the information used to reach that decision. Why should I not expect Riot Games, who I have more respect for, and who have far less players, to do the same?

Quote:
I haven't forgotten that you've already admitted to getting banned. I hope you don't try to convince me that you think your ban was undeserved. You're probably going to say you don't know why you got banned because Riot won't tell you. Well, perhaps you should spend some time thinking about the items in the Summoner's Code and why they are there and less time looking for people to spoon feed you the answers you should have already figured out by now.
I have intentionally not addressed my ban, nor asked for information to be given to me about my ban, except in correspondence with Riot Games Customer Service. I am not what this thread is about. Even if a Riot Employee came in here right now, with full logs, hell, they could even have replays, of me violating the Summoner's Code in the most egregious and aggravated manners possible, it would not change my stance one bit, nor do anything whatsoever to impact the solidity of my arguments for my viewpoint.

I don't know definitively, period, what I did to get banned. Best guess is, if the ban could possibly be justifiable under the current Code, it involves chat logs, because I have never done anything less than try my best in games I play. I never intentionally feed, I never do less than my best effort in a game (although everyone who has ever played has a bad game from time to time), I never take actions which negatively impact my team. I ward religiously, I call MIA, I ping, I try to direct my team if no direction is had otherwise. I will play a tank if one is needed, and I do my best to help my team if one of them has a suggestion for something I should do. If someone in my team is playing poorly, I do my best to try to politely make suggestions at first, and hope they pay attention to it.

So it'd have to be the chat logs, if anything.




Quote:
I'm not the one having a fantasy here. Anyone that derives amusement from the inconvenience / irritation of other people, complete strangers, is in my opinion sadly lacking in upbringing and proper focus in their lives. And you believe that somehow having a great relationship, a lucrative job, and material security are the hallmarks of a good person? I say that these things are good, but you can't take any of that with you. Eventually, once a person reaches a certain level of emotional maturity, they realize there's never a good enough reason to try and hurt someone else's feelings.
That's your moral viewpoint, and I will leave you to it. You obviously value people you don't know a lot more than I do. That might make you a good person. It also might make you a victim. I do indeed value my great relationship, material security, loving family, and all-around pleasing life, as well as my own personal growth. Perhaps I simply have a different idea of what that growth should entail; I can't say. In any case, it really has no place here. But I will say that making those sorts of assumptions about the lives of someone who does grief others has no other identifiable purpose than to comfort yourself. There is no basis for them, no evidence to back them, and no easily identifiable reason to reach for them other than what I have stated. Every time someone says "oh that troll just has a sad lonely life is what his problem is" I laugh a little, because of the sheer number of wildly happy, content, and well-adjusted people I know who just have a sense of humor that is different from others and end up with that label.



Quote:
The smart player knows that they need to supply leadership. They need to keep team morale high. They need to get the team behind them because it's not a 1v1 game.
Agreed! And this is always the first effort I try to make in any game I play unless another is already doing a good job of it. But you have to admit that at some point, in many games, it becomes overwhelmingly obvious that it is pointless. The guy who says "no u" when you ask politely that he pick up some wards has NO interest in team playing, NO interest in listening to you, and is going to continue to be willfully ignorant and selfish the rest of the game, to your detriment and everyone else's. And then what? Sit back, turn the other cheek, suck up yet another undeserved loss?

I'm not Jesus Christ, and I wouldn't want to be.

Quote:
You claim you don't have emotional attachment to what others type to you--that's great. But you seem to discount the fact that you're thinking your teammates are idiots (your words, not mine).
I don't immediately assume anyone is an idiot on a case by case basis. I know that people in general are idiots, yes. People in crowds are definitely idiots. But people one on one get every single chance I can give them to not prove themselves stupid, or worse, willfully ignorant and belligerent.

Quote:
perhaps you might take some time to consider why you're even playing a game with other people.
I play, and have for years, played games with other people because I enjoy the interaction with others of intelligence who enjoy the same things I enjoy, who value challenge, good teamwork, and the outcome of those things. I love the synergy between people when they are working together to do their best. I like the social interaction and the chances to teach others what I may have learned the hard way and to save them that trouble, if possible. I enjoy people who are looking for more information the same way that I always am. Among other reasons.


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Private Katarina

Member

01-07-2012

It's an entitlement thing, it really is.

Players being punished deserve explanations.

All other companies with similarly sized playerbases give them, as far as I'm aware.

Riot is completely alone in this, and it's unacceptable.

Even companies that are HATED by gamers for "being greedy" and "treating customers like ****" do this. See: EA, Activision, Ubisoft.

If those companies are bad ... what's that make Riot?


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HxH Hisoka

Member

01-07-2012

I just dont understand why they cant send the tribunal case that led to your warning/suspension to you via email. I mean.. the case itself can be reviewed by everyone that is using the tribunal. The person who is banned should at least be able to review his own case after he was punished imo.