Really, Riot Games?

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Vormulac Unsleep

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Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vichar View Post
I guess perhaps it helps an insecure person feel better.
This is what I call a comfort-fantasy. There is no reason whatsoever that is based in evidence to believe that someone who griefs another is in any way unhappy, dysfunctional, or lacking in their personal life. I know many trolls who simply troll because it amuses them to do so. Then they log off, go back to their great relationship, lucrative job, wonderful material security and loving family.

To assume otherwise is simply to give yourself a reason to feel better about the fact that the big bad internet nobody hurted your feeling, and it comes off as a victory for the person waiting under their bridge for the next sucker like you to come along.


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RiotKiddington

Platform Engineer

01-07-2012
3 of 8 Riot Posts

Vormulac Unsleep, I don’t want to discuss philosophical opinions that have been discussed in previous threads by many others, but I would like to share my opinion from a different angle.

If we look this issue at a technical level, the “feature” you requested requires certain engineering man power to make it happen. Let it be designers who draft the detail concept, programmers who implement the feature that generate the information you seek, DBA who manage the stored information that you requested, or QA that tests the final product… All the things you are asking takes engineering resource, and thus it begs the question from the engineering point view: could these resource be used in a more impactful way?

We know for a fact that only 1.4% of total player base get into the Tribunal, and less than 50% of that actually get into the Tribunal again. So that’s 0.7% of players that will be impacted by the feature you seek. If I take those resources and make features that will affect other 99.3% (or 98.6%) of the player base, wouldn’t that be more effective and impactful?

Imagine all the features that have been discussed in other threads: improve the match making, ability to put notes on friend list, first win of the day timer, better air client, new AI bots, etc. If you are in my position, how would you convince other engineers at Riot that this is more important than all the features stated above? How would you reason with them that we should put additional engineering resource to the benefit of the 0.7% repeated offenders instead of the 98.6% general public?


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Byerley

Senior Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotKiddington View Post
If we look this issue at a technical level, the “feature” you requested requires certain engineering man power to make it happen. Let it be designers who draft the detail concept, programmers who implement the feature that generate the information you seek, DBA who manage the stored information that you requested, or QA that tests the final product… All the things you are asking takes engineering resource, and thus it begs the question from the engineering point view: could these resource be used in a more impactful way?
Your process can't possibly be this thorough. Your timestamps are fubared every other week ffs. You have pipelining issues that have been around for months. Last time I checked, you weren't even doing captchas right.

If I were you, I'd put an intern on it for a month and fire them for incompetence if they couldn't build a better system.


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Vichar

Senior Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vormulac Unsleep View Post
No, I agree that this is probably true. I think that the majority of cases there would be no relevant other side of the story, bans are legit, and no further discussion would be needed once the evidence is presented to the accused. Again, at this point, Riot could simply resort to the form letter - they have done their duty of truly informing a player of what they did and how to change and it becomes up to the person themselves to make the change. But there WILL always be cases with another side of the story. I know, I've BEEN on the other side of that story. I've been in numerous games with lies told in chat to pad the logs for a report. I've read numerous Tribunal cases where someone had one or two games only in the log to look over (and clicked pardon, but lets face it, plenty of sadistic people click punish. They brag about it.). And again, it is better to err on the side of helping those people, and helping those who were wrong, and deserved their ban but truly wish to make a change. "You know what you did" is a lie, an outright lie. Not everyone does know, until told. Period.
This is a fair concession on your part, so kudos to you for that.

As for "You know what you did", well the problem is even if you told someone what they did, they would still deny what they did. That's what Riot says they experienced again and again. As for sadistic people just clicking Punish, it's a really sad, sad person that gets pleasure out of that. I doubt there are enough Tribunal people out there doing this. Also, Riot has already said that their system takes into account people that keep getting cases wrong. I suspect this means if you are just clicking Punish on everyone, you'll eventually have your Tribunal access revoked, or at least your vote will receive a lower weight.

As for lies told in chat to pad logs for a report, I've never encountered this. You say you encountered it so, fine, you encountered it. I'm curious as to what was said. How does someone convince the Tribunal reader of something? If I see someone accusing a teammate of feeding, and that person has a bad score, it still doesn't make me punish. I only punish for intentional feeding if that person themselves in chat states the clear intention to feed.

Nobody can make you type insults to other people in game. Only repeatedly doing this leads me to click punish for verbal harrassment.

Nobody can make you leave the game or go AFK. How does padding the chat with lies make you buy 6 boots of speed or no items at all, and have zero kills/deaths/assists?

These are the offenses I click punish for. How are you going to trick me with lies in the chat log? I'm really only interested in what you, the accused, had to say. Nobody made you make those racist / sexist / insulting remarks to your teammates. Oh, they provoked you to it, huh? Well, you still broke the Summoner's Code. What does it matter what those other players said? You can report them just as easily as they reported you.

By the way, it's this kind of weak argument that I'm referring to VU. It's like you're reaching for an argument, but that argument doesn't make any sense. What the other players in the chat log said has close to zero bearing on whether or not I hit punish. I am interested only in what the accused had to say. In essence, that's the accused person's chance of defending themselves. If they really didn't misbehave, the chat log will exonerate them.


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Vichar

Senior Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrinking Violet View Post
Your process can't possibly be this thorough. Your timestamps are fubared every other week ffs. You have pipelining issues that have been around for months. Last time I checked, you weren't even doing captchas right.

If I were you, I'd put an intern on it for a month and fire them for incompetence if they couldn't build a better system.
You are arguing his point for him. They have WAY bigger fish to fry than the 0.7% of the community that is, by any practical evaluation, ruining the game for everyone else.


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Redeemed In Fire

Senior Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotKiddington View Post
We know for a fact that only 1.4% of total player base get into the Tribunal, and less than 50% of that actually get into the Tribunal again. So that’s 0.7% of players that will be impacted by the feature you seek. If I take those resources and make features that will affect other 99.3% (or 98.6%) of the player base, wouldn’t that be more effective and impactful?

Imagine all the features that have been discussed in other threads: improve the match making, ability to put notes on friend list, first win of the day timer, better air client, new AI bots, etc. If you are in my position, how would you convince other engineers at Riot that this is more important than all the features stated above? How would you reason with them that we should put additional engineering resource to the benefit of the 0.7% repeated offenders instead of the 98.6% general public?
Totally agree, sad that you'll get hit by a tidal wave of "tribunal sux!!!!!111!1!!" haters though.


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Vichar

Senior Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vormulac Unsleep View Post
The second reason this bothers me is the "do what I say, and don't ask questions". This is the purest form of totalitarianism. I rebelled against it my entire young life, and I am a stronger and more educated person because I insisted on asking questions, and on taking whatever steps needed to educate myself. Thankfully, we needn't delve further into that subject, as I don't think it much applies here. No one is asking Riot to explain WHY they think certain behaviour is wrong, only to educate people of their wrongdoings and categorize them under the then-clear Code.
And here we arrive at the core of my point. I'm going to tell you a little story. When I was little, there as a drought in my neighborhood. My mom told me not to take a shower, but instead to use a tub and a washcloth to save water. So I started filling the tub slowly with water, but ironically that action made a lot of noise. My mom yelled at me through the bathroom door to stop taking a shower. Realizing that there was no way to convince her with the noise alone, I simply turned on the shower and filled the washtub that way.

My point is, rebelling against authority is as enslaving as simply doing what you are told. Both extremes are not productive and don't teach you anything.

I'm sorry, but my opinion is that's what you're doing here. You're rebelling against perceived authority, but nobody is telling you what to do. They really aren't. They are saying, if you're rude to your fellow players, they have the right to eject you from the game. They don't have to give you warnings. They don't have to give you limited suspensions before a permaban. They do these things out of courtesy. The amount of effort in programming the Tribunal? It's immense. I'm a software development lead at my company; I know. They didn't have to do any of it, but I'm really glad they did.

You come along with your Orwellian theories about how messed up Riot is. And yet at every turn you cite examples of other people (not Riot) messing up and smearing their name, like that girl tourney. All the while you're spending all this time posting about a free game where the makers owe you nothing, no, not even an explanation. They don't owe you anything, and the sooner you realize this the sooner you'll stop rebelling in your life and start walking a more moderate road. You can do what benefits you the most, instead of simply being against something because someone told you to do it. Ever heard of reverse psychology? You're a victim of it, but the one applying it to you is yourself. I'm not trying to insult you; believe it or not I'm trying to help you. Fight the battles worth fighting, but recognize friends when you see them. Riot has been nothing but considerate to their player base, and anyone that thinks otherwise is probably a little self-centered. I haven't forgotten that you've already admitted to getting banned. I hope you don't try to convince me that you think your ban was undeserved. You're probably going to say you don't know why you got banned because Riot won't tell you. Well, perhaps you should spend some time thinking about the items in the Summoner's Code and why they are there and less time looking for people to spoon feed you the answers you should have already figured out by now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vormulac Unsleep View Post
This is what I call a comfort-fantasy. There is no reason whatsoever that is based in evidence to believe that someone who griefs another is in any way unhappy, dysfunctional, or lacking in their personal life. I know many trolls who simply troll because it amuses them to do so. Then they log off, go back to their great relationship, lucrative job, wonderful material security and loving family.

To assume otherwise is simply to give yourself a reason to feel better about the fact that the big bad internet nobody hurted your feeling, and it comes off as a victory for the person waiting under their bridge for the next sucker like you to come along.
I'm not the one having a fantasy here. Anyone that derives amusement from the inconvenience / irritation of other people, complete strangers, is in my opinion sadly lacking in upbringing and proper focus in their lives. And you believe that somehow having a great relationship, a lucrative job, and material security are the hallmarks of a good person? I say that these things are good, but you can't take any of that with you. Eventually, once a person reaches a certain level of emotional maturity, they realize there's never a good enough reason to try and hurt someone else's feelings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vormulac Unsleep
Lucky you. I haven't. Fully 3/4 of my games are won or lost in champ select, by getting the wrong person, who goes on to intrusively ruin the game for either me, or people on the other team. Not just my losses, mind you; wins as well. Probably half my wins are because of an idiot on the other team making it unfair in my favor. And that's just people who do things that actually affect the outcome of the game regardless of my or anyone on either team's behaviour or commentary. If I were to delve into chat events, that number goes up drastically. But I leave chat out of it, since it is easily negated with either the ignore function, or having the common sense to not become emotionally engaged with words random internet people type in a box.
The fact that you believe the game was lost in champ select is telling. The fact that you believe that somehow (a lack of teammates') player skill "ruins your games" suggest you really don't know why you got your ban. You think that only the clicks that control the champion actually affect gameplay. That really just reveals where you are on the road to understanding the way things really work. Consider. Nothing happens with your hand before you envision it in your mind first. Emotional state can easily cloud judgment and impair performance. The smart player knows that they need to supply leadership. They need to keep team morale high. They need to get the team behind them because it's not a 1v1 game. You claim you don't have emotional attachment to what others type to you--that's great. But you seem to discount the fact that you're thinking your teammates are idiots (your words, not mine). With that kind of thinking, I don't believe you aren't typing offensive things to them occasionally. At the very least, you're not treating them like human beings in your head, where it matters. I have no reason to believe that your words or actions reflect any better. People think it's all about actions that define a person. No, actions reveal a person. It happened their head as thoughts first. They do what they do habitually because they cultivate certain thoughts and eschew others. If you are going around thinking that people on your team are idiots and that success is measured by material security, well, perhaps you might take some time to consider why you're even playing a game with other people.


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Byerley

Senior Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vichar View Post
You are arguing his point for him. They have WAY bigger fish to fry than the 0.7% of the community that is, by any practical evaluation, ruining the game for everyone else.
An intern makes what? 2k a month? I imagine that's several orders of magnitude less than the original monetary value of the RP and RP purchases seized by tribunal bans.


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RiotKiddington

Platform Engineer

01-07-2012
4 of 8 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrinking Violet View Post
Your process can't possibly be this thorough. Your timestamps are fubared every other week ffs. You have pipelining issues that have been around for months. Last time I checked, you weren't even doing captchas right.
I think you are underestimating the complexity of these processes. While there are problems and down times, but Riot’s development and release practices are fairly compartmentalized. There are teams formed from game design, graphic design, game engineering, platform engineering, operation, QA, international, web, store, IT, etc. that handles various specialized tasks in the development and release cycle. This is also the same reason when players requested “first win of the day timer” feature, and they ask me if I could just write the code and release it, I told them I can’t because even if I write the code, I still need QA to test it, UI designer to make the wire frame, air client engineer to make the UI, and lastly release engineer to release the thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrinking Violet View Post
If I were you, I'd put an intern on it for a month and fire them for incompetence if they couldn't build a better system.
Intern or not, this still gets back to the same issue, should we spend our engineering resource on THAT feature.


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Vichar

Senior Member

01-07-2012

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrinking Violet View Post
An intern makes what? 2k a month? I imagine that's several orders of magnitude less than the original monetary value of the RP and RP purchases seized by tribunal bans.
This should tell you something about Riot's commitment to making the community a place the great majority of their player base enjoys playing. They are willing to give up that RP from bans because it makes the rest of their players (like me, who just spent some more money buying RP for a friend this Christmas) very happy.

I can't believe RiotKiddington took the intern comment seriously. How is an intern going to come in off the street and learn Riot's processes in a reasonable amount of time? My experience from leading dev teams is that new employees are a serious time sink. You invest the time in them because you hope they will eventually pay you back after you train them in what you're doing. It's a long term investment that won't help in the short term, which is what I think S.Violet is on about--getting these things fixed quicker.