Really, Riot Games?

First Riot Post
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Pendragon

Director of Player Experience

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12-21-2011
2 of 8 Riot Posts

Quote:
Please know that a size-able portion of your player-base is completely disgusted with these actions and will be speaking with our wallets. How can you expect us to spend money on your game when you retain the right to terminate access to our virtual property with no justification and no appeal?
With every decision that's made - you're going to make some people happy and some people upset. There's literally nothing that we could ever do that will be universally well received.

With the efforts here we hope to create an environment that's more enjoyable for players. We've done extensive auditing and tuning on the Tribunal and have verified that it's extremely accurate. The ~99% of people who don't consistently create a negative experience for those around them have nothing to fear.

The Tribunal is meant to reform those who can be reformed, and remove those who can't. Any change, addition, subtraction, substitution, etc will be to improve its effectiveness at one of those two things. There's no reason to implement changes that don't help reform or removal.

I understand that it's frustrating for you - and thousands of other people, but reforming or removing an even greater number of people is a much bigger priority.


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ZennShade

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vichar View Post
It is his job. However, I see lots and lots of posts fly by without a response. This means Pen gets to choose which threads he responds to and which ones he doesn't.

When I read the original poster's thread (this one and the old one), I was disgusted by his tone. If I were Riot, I wouldn't have touched this post with a ten foot pole. This kind of clueless belligerence doesn't deserve a response. That's what I mean by "Pen didn't have to." He really only has to answer the respectful, sincere questions. This is just the original poster getting on a soapbox.
So your mom grounds you for a week, with no prior warning and her only response to you asking what you did was. "You should be able to figure it out on your own." You're not going to be mad, in the slightest? Let's say you planned to go a concert every day that week and had spent a $300 total for tickets which you can't do anything with because you're not allowed to even have company, much less leave the house. Still not upset? Not even a little? It's the exact same principle and Riot is really only making it harder on themselves to stay in the competitive RTS or MOBA genre by quite literally driving away their own players with their methods. People don't want to feel ignored.


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Private Katarina

Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendragon View Post
I have read and considered your position - but I just disagree.

Ultimately we've intentionally decided to be vague about suspension reasons because we expect that people need to be able to use some judgment and adapt to various social situations to be productive members of the community. If you can't shape your judgment and behavior with the information that we've provided then I have no reason to believe you're going to be able to respond well in the infinite types of social situations that can occur during your League of Legends experience.

Providing a detailed list of what's acceptable and not acceptable will change your judgment. We've found that even when providing people with a detailed list of insight that was used to make a decision - in every single instance they simply tried to argue or disagree with the evidence, or justify their behavior. If someone actually said, "Ah, so that's what I did wrong, I can see how that could be upsetting to people", then actually change - perhaps my opinion would be different.

If you keep spamming your thread in multiple forums, and bumping it, you will likely lose your access to both the game and the forums.
Scumbag Pendragon silencing all criticism of his precious system once again with poorly formed opinions that aren't grounded in how normal people behave.

And then threatening a game ban to make sure it stays silent.

And then getting upvotes for his *TERRIBLE* post from the ban-loving, over-zealous Tribunal community.

Classy.

Seriously though, fix the system. At the very least link them their own case with chat logs / etc.

Honestly Pendragon, your posts alone have caused me to buy my last Riot Points months ago. I haven't gotten any emails in months and months, but just the knowledge that this still happens and you actively promote it keeps my wallet closed all the same. I can easily afford RP. The sole reason I don't buy any is because of your callous, arrogant attitude in every single Tribunal thread where you smash the keyboard "MY DESIGN IS PERFECT AND IF YOU KEEP SAYING ITS NOT ILL BAN YOUUUUUUU!"


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AncientSpark

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Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZennShade View Post
So your mom grounds you for a week, with no prior warning and her only response to you asking what you did was. "You should be able to figure it out on your own." You're not going to be mad, in the slightest? Let's say you planned to go a concert every day that week and had spent a $300 total for tickets which you can't do anything with because you're not allowed to even have company, much less leave the house. Still not upset? Not even a little? It's the exact same principle.
And the child who gets upset by that situation without spending any time in reflection or any time thinking about the situation before complaining and venting about it is spoiled. Yes, a kid would be upset about it. Why? Because they immediately complain that it's the parent's responsibility to spoon-feed them what they want to hear. They want their parents to take their responsibilities of contemplation for them. A parent who heard that their child would be upset over this would be even more angry at their child if they responded like this. In other words, the kid is just immature.

Only if the decision to punish was very hard to decide on and only after the kid spent some time reflecting on his actions would it be unacceptable to not tell the kid on what he did wrong.

These aren't morally questionable areas. You have to be very obviously a troll in order to get into this situation.

Besides, you're acting like Riot is your mom. That's not an apt comparison. Your mom has responsibilities in taking care of you, as part of a familial relationship. Riot has a cooperative relationship with you, which is far more distant. If one end fails to uphold their end of the deal (that is the Terms of Service), there is no reason Riot has to treat you with any respect.


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Vichar

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZennShade View Post
O I don't think that every person from the middle east is a terrorist just because some of them are. I don't think every black person is a thief because some of them are. I don't think all white people are racist because some of them are. So why is it perfectly okay for him to think all people who disagree with him are wrong? And why is it perfectly okay for him to think because everyone isn't willing to admit they were wrong that nobody is? If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. It's that simple, plain as day, flat out. But tell me WHY I was wrong, tell me a legitimate reason why I was wrong. A lot of the reasons people get banned aren't because they were acting that bad, just that some people are overly sensitive. Or, people get banned for just defending themselves.

Case in point, I got banned for for saying two people were sick ****s, as well as perhaps a bit of colorful language. Granted, I broke summoners code and that was wrong of me. But what doesn't get looked at is what they said to me. Part of what they said to me was asking me if I was so bad at this game because my uncle rapes me. Now, would you seriously not be upset even in the slightest? To me, those two guys deserve a lot harsher punishment than I did but my friends checked and those guys were still playing games while I was banned.
There are practical realities that Riot has to weigh. They have to exercise their good judgment just like we have to exercise it in game. They have to weigh the value of telling people exactly what they did wrong with the potential headache of having people come back with Riot's specific responses, compare them, misquote and distort them (ahem), and then cry out how some people are getting treated differently and how it's unfair and the whole thing should be scrapped. That's the essence of what I'm seeing. I have to agree with that idea; I saw a thread where a guy was really upset he was banned and he didn't think he should have. Turns out he was calling people dumb, noob, and spamming chat with capital letters. Even after Riot explained things to him, he insisted that he was innocent. He tried to argue that he played a lot of games and that's why he was singled out. Turns out he had received over 200 reports. Think about that for a moment. Two hundred people, probably almost all unique (I rarely encounter the same people twice), thought this guy was rude to them or doing something else to disrupt their game. It's just a horrible lack of objectivity.

After doing this again and again, and getting the same clueless responses back, what is Riot supposed to conclude? Why should they even try to teach what it means to have common decency and treat others with respect? I have to agree with them here; if a person hasn't learned this already from their upbringing, there is scant chance a letter from Riot is going to teach it to them. Yet, I find the great, great majority of people playing this game seem to know what those rules are. And by the way, Riot makes them explicit in their Summoner's Code, just to be plain.

One more thing. They were wrong to be rude to you, too. And you should have reported them. Here's the interesting thing about this kind of behavior: it's habitual. Rude people can't seem to control themselves. So if they were indeed jerks to you, just report them. How do you know they didn't get reported by other people already, and their suspensions are just around the corner? My experience is that the in-game griefing has dropped off A LOT since the Tribunal got implemented, and I'm grateful.


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Private Katarina

Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZennShade View Post
So your mom grounds you for a week, with no prior warning and her only response to you asking what you did was. "You should be able to figure it out on your own." You're not going to be mad, in the slightest? Let's say you planned to go a concert every day that week and had spent a $300 total for tickets which you can't do anything with because you're not allowed to even have company, much less leave the house. Still not upset? Not even a little? It's the exact same principle and Riot is really only making it harder on themselves to stay in the competitive RTS or MOBA genre by quite literally driving away their own players with their methods. People don't want to feel ignored.
Honestly, if I spent $300 in concert tickets and got told I couldn't go I would tell her to go **** herself and just leave the house to catch a bus or cab. I think that's what most normal people would do too, normal meaning not rich to the point where pissing $300 down the drain on nothing doesn't faze them. Least that's what I would've done at 15,16 or whatever.


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Vichar

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZennShade View Post
So your mom grounds you for a week, with no prior warning and her only response to you asking what you did was. "You should be able to figure it out on your own." You're not going to be mad, in the slightest? Let's say you planned to go a concert every day that week and had spent a $300 total for tickets which you can't do anything with because you're not allowed to even have company, much less leave the house. Still not upset? Not even a little? It's the exact same principle and Riot is really only making it harder on themselves to stay in the competitive RTS or MOBA genre by quite literally driving away their own players with their methods. People don't want to feel ignored.
You're not being fair. It's pretty clear what the suspensions are for. It's against the summoner's code to disrupt the game for other people. They report you, and the Tribunal compares the chat log with the rules listed in the Summoner's code. It's not coming out of left field. It's almost always some kind of intentional griefing in game, AFK, or just being plain rude to other people in chat.

Are there exceptions, people that got banned by the system that shouldn't have? I'll be there are. And yet, the attitudes of the people claiming they were suspended unfairly are uniformly poor. They make a very strong case against themselves. I think this is why the police grant you the right to remain silent...


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IndecisivePlayer

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Senior Member

12-21-2011

Stop taking the high ground it's already been said these changes are being worked on and that the tribunal is 'constantly being worked on' stop turning everything into project shiny


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ZennShade

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by AncientSpark View Post
And the child who gets upset by that situation without spending any time in reflection or any time thinking about the situation before complaining and venting about it is spoiled. Yes, a kid would be upset about it. Why? Because they immediately complain that it's the parent's responsibility to spoon-feed them what they want to hear. They want their parents to take their responsibilities of contemplation for them. A parent who heard that their child would be upset over this would be even more angry at their child if they responded like this. In other words, the kid is just immature.

These aren't morally questionable areas. You have to be very obviously a troll in order to get into this situation.
If you get arrested, they tell you the reason why you were arrested. It's the same principle. When you are punished, you should always be told the reason why. Not simply "You did it, figure it out." I do a lot of things in a single day, and some of them might not be that great but I don't consider any of them worthy of me being outcasted from my peers.

I'm more likely to learn from my mistake if my mom said "You broke curfew three times last week." than if I was just grounded out of random. The way I see it, the only people who can ACTUALLY benefit from not being told what they did wrong are those people who intentionally did something they knew they weren't supposed to do.


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Ashfordjim

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Private Katarina View Post
Honestly, if I spent $300 in concert tickets and got told I couldn't go I would tell her to go **** herself and just leave the house to catch a bus or cab. I think that's what most normal people would do too, normal meaning not rich to the point where pissing $300 down the drain on nothing doesn't faze them. Least that's what I would've done at 15,16 or whatever.
WTH is wrong with you? No, normal people don't say something like that to their parents.