Really, Riot Games?

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Vormulac Unsleep

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

12-21-2011

Since I have been threatened with a ban to my game account for continuing to post this where it belongs - in the General Discussion forum - I have kept it here and request that others do the same. I don't want to see anyone else lose access to their account for no good reason, as enough of that goes on every day as it is.

Edit: I have attempted to clarify some of my points in my most recent post on this thread as part of the ongoing debate with posters, specifically my arguments about subjectivity - as they were being taken as an indication that arguing against Riot's idea of right and wrong are the reasoning for wanting this information - it is not. The post is here: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=19305905&posted=1#post19305905

I was banned from the forums for two days, I can only assume it was for posting this. And of course, no reason was given. Additionally, both the original thread, and the thread redirecting to it that I made before, have been closed - despite being massively upvoted and supported by the community. With, of course, no reason or comment by Riot Games given. Thus, I am reposting it, and asking if there is a legitimate reason for it to be closed, for Riot Games to address it in this thread, instead of attempting to silence discussion of this issue and ignore it. I somewhat expect another forum ban. If I receive one, another summoner will repost this. If he is banned, another will take up the thread. Ad infinitum, as long as there is no discussion on this topic.

The original thread, with its 150+ upvotes and summoner commentary, may be found here:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1604835

So here we go. Again. Here is the text of the original thread:

...and one you will eventually have to address.

Disclaimer: I will state up front, I am not looking for an addressing of my own situation in particular, as all I received was a warning. What I am looking for is an addressing of a serious problem with general policy in and of itself. You are welcome to address me personally on the matter - you have my email and I am right here on the forums nearly every day - but even if you were to respond with a laundry list of violations on my part that completely validates my receipt of this warning, it does not, in any way, even one iota change that how you as a company are handling this issue is completely wrong and needs to be looked at long and hard. Because even the guilty deserve a fair day in "court".

I received a warning in my email from League of Legends Support, stating this:


Quote:
Greetings [removed],

Certain in-Game activity on your account has been found to be in violation of the Summoner’s Code by the Tribunal.

The most common cause for this warning is either harassment or disruption of gameplay (intentional feeding, etc.). Bear in mind that the definition of harassment can range from direct, overt verbal harassment, to intentionally creating an unpleasant gameplay environment.

This is a friendly warning to encourage you to respect the Summoner's Code and contribute to the community in a positive light.

Thanks for your understanding, and best of luck on the Fields of Justice!

Summoner's Code: http://www.leagueoflegends.com/articles/The_Summoners_Code

You can read the Tribunal FAQ here: http://www.leagueoflegends.com/tribunal/faq

Terms of Use: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/legal/termsofuse
Since this is absolutely vague, supplies no information that is of use in changing behaviour whatsoever, and effectively might as well not have been sent for all the good it will do to anyone who isn't intentionally setting out to break rules and has full knowledge of what they did wrong, I sent off a reply immediately. Here is my reply:


Quote:
[removed], Dec-14 17:38 (PST):

Greetings Riot Games,

"Certain in-Game activity on your account has been found to be in violation of the Summoner’s Code by the Tribunal.

The most common cause for this warning is either harassment or disruption of gameplay (intentional feeding, etc.). Bear in mind that the definition of harassment can range from direct, overt verbal harassment, to intentionally creating an unpleasant gameplay environment."

These statements in your "warning" email tell me nothing whatsoever about what I may have done in order to get this warning to begin with. It is vague, includes no direct accusations of specific behaviour which may have been against the Summoner's Code, and gives me no guidelines by which I may set a standard for behaviour different from that which I have already engaged in. I have read the Summoner's Code. I have behaved accordingly, as I see it, and without further information as to what I specifically did, and the information used to reach the decision that I had violated said code, I have nothing to go on to make any kind of change whatsoever. Therefore I respectfully request that I be told what I did that resulted in this warning, and the information used to reach that decision. Once I am aware of what it is I have done, I can then begin to adjust my behaviour accordingly in order to avoid such a situation in the future.

Without said information, as I stated previously, I have nothing to go on, no guidelines by which to make a change, and therefore cannot reasonably or rationally be expected to comply. Saying "follow the Summoner's Code" does not help, it is vague and subjective and, as stated, I read it well before I received this warning, and still ended up in the Tribunal somehow. I will gladly make a change, if given the information requested above so I know -what- to change specifically.

Thank you.
After a single day (the shortest I have ever waited for a response from Support, so kudos to them on that) I received this rather disturbing response:


Quote:
The Doctor, Dec-15 11:33 (PST):

Hello [removed],

We do not discuss the details surrounding Tribunal cases because we have already determined that actions taken on an account warrant the suspension before we approve it, and it is then no longer up for discussion. Remember that both players and Riot employees viewing the tribunal are provided with chat logs and other relevant stats to reach the appropriate decision. Players generally understand what sort of behavior will negatively impact other players outside of the standard game experience, and we do not want to confuse the issue or start a debate by citing specific actions or text when the underlying intent is clear. If you feel unclear about this, please consult the Summoner's Code, linked below.

If you have reported players in the past, your reports have also been evaluated. Do not believe that they are ignored simply because you did not receive a response, we simply do not share information about disciplinary actions for any reason.

Please note that this is a temporary suspension, we prefer to give players the opportunity to amend their habits rather than remove access to the accounts that they have poured time and effort into. However, if an account has been found in repeat violation of the Code of Conduct, we need to reevaluate the duration of your suspension. Our goal with this is to create an environment in the game where everyone can enjoy themselves. If you have been on the receiving end of disruptive behavior, I think you can understand our motivations.

I'm sorry for the inconvenience, and I hope this addressed your concerns, it is already more detail than I am supposed to go into regarding this process. I won't be able to elaborate further.

The Summoner's Code: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/articles/The_Summoners_Code

Sincerely,
The Doctor
Like I said, disturbing. I'll address why I find this response short-sighted, disgusting, and also both irrelevant and completely unhelpful bit by bit.

First off,

Quote:
We do not discuss the details surrounding Tribunal cases because we have already determined that actions taken on an account warrant the suspension before we approve it, and it is then no longer up for discussion.
This is just revolting, and makes every single fiber of my being that is free, intelligent, and moral stand on end, electrified. It is no longer up for discussion? So, what you are saying essentially is we are tried, convicted and punished without a single word in defense of ourselves, without even knowing what it is we are accused of, nor why. This single statement renders anything said by Riot Games about how they are community-friendly, how they like to be communicative with their fans, how they appreciate us - null and void. You are not appreciative of, communicative with, or friendly to anyone you would treat this way. You are simply looking for the easiest way to handle a perceived problem, regardless of the how the outcome affects anyone else.


Quote:
Remember that both players and Riot employees viewing the tribunal are provided with chat logs and other relevant stats to reach the appropriate decision.
In short, not enough information. Many times when doing the Tribunal cases, I have to pass on them or just pardon, because there is not enough information to know what led up to the incidents in question. There is no pre, or post-game logs. There is no way to know what is being done in the game - there is only secondhand accounts in the logs, such as "player ran mid over and over and died" <--- How the hell do I know? Maybe they tried hard, and died over and over because they were having an offgame, and are simply being lied about in the chat or report? I have personally seem players do this in game - say a bunch of lies in chat in order to bolster a report they intended to file at the end of the game.

This is part of why I want to see what information is used to accuse me. Which brings me to:


Quote:
Players generally understand what sort of behavior will negatively impact other players outside of the standard game experience, and we do not want to confuse the issue or start a debate by citing specific actions or text when the underlying intent is clear. If you feel unclear about this, please consult the Summoner's Code, linked below.
Not good enough, period. No, not everyone knows why they end up with a warning or a ban - not specifically. And specifics is what must be provided. The way you handle this now would be totalitarian, except that when saying "do what we say, or we'll shoot you" - doing what you say is difficult, at best, because you're saying something more like "do *mumblemumblemumble* or we'll shoot you". You are not giving any further information, in my case, to tell me what to change to avoid a further warning, or worse, a ban. You are essentially saying, with this line of text, "sorry, we won't give you any further information, because then you may be able to clear up the circumstances, you may be able to provide your own information that was not present in the Tribunal log - in short, you may be able to defend yourself, and we can't have that, because what we say is law regardless of how incorrect or ill-informed it may be."
Saying "look at the Summoner's Code" is not enough. I read it. We all read it. It is clear on some points, where most peoples' ideals of proper behaviour converge, but painfully subjective and vague in all other respects.

In short, I cannot change my behaviour to avoid further warnings or a ban, because you haven't told me what I did wrong in the first place, and sorry, but "you should know what you did" doesn't cut it. This is the equivalent of having walked into a new town, having not known every single law on the books of that town, but having only your own personal moral guidelines to go on that have been generally accepted by people everywhere you have previously gone, having broken some law, being arrested by a police officer who won't tell you what you did, having a trial in your absence, and being sentenced - still without ever being told what statute you may have violated. It is unacceptable to anyone with even one iota of a sense of what freedom, justice, or morality entails.

It is absolutely revolting and makes a lie out of every statement you have ever made about not being all-in for the money, caring about your community, or doing what is best for us as a whole.

Before I go, here's one more cute bit of information from that letter I received:

Quote:
Please note that this is a temporary suspension
...Except I didn't get a suspension. I got a warning. Your oh-so-humble Support person The Doctor didn't even bother to read my reply to your letter. He skimmed it at best and fired off a copy-pasted form-letter without a single bit of independent thought or actual intent to respond to me as a person, on a case-by-case basis, with any fairmindedness or willingness to communicate whatsoever.



Quote:
I'm sorry for the inconvenience, and I hope this addressed your concerns
Right now that is all it is - an inconvenience, as this is just a warning - and I am willing to let it go at that, seeing as my account access was not removed in this manner. But it did not address my concerns, and I can only hope that, seeing as I have NO intent whatsoever to change my behaviour, lacking the guideliness and/or the subjective interpretation of what I did to violate the Summoner's Code as far as Riot is concerned, I do not end up getting another letter, or worse, removal of access to my account for any period of time. (Edit: I was banned for three days recently, after hardly playing the game at all in the weeks since posting this thread. I have no idea why, and thus still no basis upon which to make a change. Riot simply expects me, and everyone else, to intuitively divine THEIR opinion of right and wrong if it is not common ground between both of us. Ridiculous. I have a ticket in to support requesting the information needed to make a change, but I expect nothing but poor results and another form-letter that is automated - I will post it when I get it.)

Because if that happens, I won't simply let it go, won't simply drop it or walk away from the issue, and the response to that kind of action won't be nearly anything so simple as the letters I sent to support or this thread.

What I am saying here is, I am asking Riot to look at this policy and to amend it for the good of their playerbase, and for the good of their own company's public relations and reputation. This is no way to treat your customers, and the general feeling I get from many of your employees is one of fun and community brotherhood.

So do it, Riot. Follow your own Code and change this terrible policy now. Because right now, no matter what anyone does to land them in your badly-thought-out Tribunal - And make no mistake, your Tribunal as it stands is weaponized to harm those who just want to play fun games and to back up those who actually do things which affect the gameplay of the games themselves - YOU are in the wrong as long as you carry on like this.

And what you are essentially doing is pouring fuel on a fire you can never put out. Because you can't prevent access to the game - all you can do is create a secondary class of players who, feeling as though they were mistreated, with no information to go on, simply make a new account, come back, and become the very type of players you are attempting to weed out through use of your Tribunal - only worse, because they feel personally slighted by you. How many people do you think get a ban in this way, with no information, and just move along? I'd hazard to guess that it is very few. I'd guess that the ones who did something wrong and know it just come back to do worse the next time, because what else do they have to lose? I'd venture to guess the ones who still feel as if they did nothing wrong become the player you accused them of being, because they've already lost everything with no recourse and no feeling of justice. People never, in situations like this, in the real world and especially online, just take this kind of treatment sitting down with their hands behind their back going "oh gee, guess I done messed up sir". They put your back to the wall, is what they do. And honestly? The way this community has gone downhill, I'd say it has already started happening to some degree. Please be less short-sighted than this. For the sake of everyone who loves your game.



Edit: I would also like to state that this is the second time I have received such a warning, and I did NOTHING whatsoever differently in the intervening year since that first warning. Nothing whatsoever, because I had, as stated in this post, no guidelines by which to make a change. And it took almost a year for me to even receive another warning, leading me to believe that either nothing that bad was done to garner the first warning, or the situation (whatever it was) that lead to the warnings was fairly unique and only happened once or twice. This in and of itself indicates a flaw in your system of deciding who gets warned and punished.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

XdaXtremer

Member

12-21-2011

They see me postin first,
They hatin...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

XdaXtremer

Member

12-21-2011

Bump for great causes.

+1


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Anonic

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vormulac Unsleep View Post
I like the downvotes in less time than it would have taken to read the post. Mindless fanboys.
Maybe we all read it the last time you posted it? Oh no that couldn't be possible, must be sheep fanboys.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Furry Wolf

Senior Member

12-21-2011

Hot jamz


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Vormulac Unsleep

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonic View Post
Maybe we all read it the last time you posted it? Oh no that couldn't be possible, must be sheep fanboys.
Don't see why anyone would downvote, except to be contrary or attempt to troll people with legitimate concerns. Having a change to this atrocious policy neither picks your pocket, nor breaks your back. So yes. Fanboys who will defend anything - or trolls.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Soft Cow

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-21-2011

i find it funny that they moved this to the tribunal forum


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Vormulac Unsleep

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

12-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soft Cow View Post
i find it funny that they moved this to the tribunal forum
Wow. They did. They ****ing moved this to the Tribunal forum. Again.

I'm amazed. They are really starting to just outright disgust me.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Soft Cow

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-21-2011

and I downvoted because the tribunal appears to be working....for all the people that have posted on here complaining about it not one has ever come up innocent. Once someone posts on here and it is discovered that they were banned for doing nothing wrong then maybe I will reconsider but so far every time it has just been pendragon laying the smack down on people. Also, Riot has stated numerous times that they don't give more information because this just leads to people trying to argue their case which accompishes nothing.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Anonic

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

12-21-2011

They probably used Ctrl+F Tribunal, since it comes up 19 times in your original post, including 5 times in your paragraph arguing that this isn't Tribunal related, and then again in every full quote you posted.