@ riot: WW

First Riot Post
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JuanBarco

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Senior Member

12-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteDraggon View Post
need to build on hit for jungle guys
14% AS runes
15 armor pen runes
13 armor runes
13/1/16 masteries
start with dagger build into zerks and have double buff at 3
easy ganks level 3 before side lanes
with madreds, malady and wits end level 13 solo baron
MAX OUT THAT W
interesting will try that.Although i have never had a problem soloing baron if i have mbr and malady. Also really expensive build for you to have by 13.


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Alice Twilight

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Senior Member

12-05-2011

I haven't had any problems with WW's clear speed, admittedly I main Udyr and today in ranked I made WW my *****, seriously it was like having 2 jungles but I digress, I don't have any speed problems when I play him and once he hits 6 you pretty much get to give your teammates free kills.


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JuanBarco

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Senior Member

12-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice Twilight View Post
I haven't had any problems with WW's clear speed, admittedly I main Udyr and today in ranked I made WW my *****, seriously it was like having 2 jungles but I digress, I don't have any speed problems when I play him and once he hits 6 you pretty much get to give your teammates free kills.
I agree whole heartedly. But honestly I see a ww in the other jungle and I can't wait to dominate it. He has no jungle presence because he is useless without his ult. You probably won't kill him, but you won't die unless you fight him and drop to below half health with no escape.

He is awesome. post 6. and is a free kill almost everygank. but he is such a liability pre 6.


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Zachgoose

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12-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice Twilight View Post
I haven't had any problems with WW's clear speed, admittedly I main Udyr and today in ranked I made WW my *****, seriously it was like having 2 jungles but I digress, I don't have any speed problems when I play him and once he hits 6 you pretty much get to give your teammates free kills.
I've done something like that as well to a Warwick as Riven. Eventually, Warwick basically gave up because he was so underleveled and he started laning. xD


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Morello

Lead Designer

12-05-2011
8 of 8 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAPSLOCKCOMMANDO View Post
Hey Morello

Is the next meme going to be

"Better nerf Riven" or "Better nerf Wukong"

JOKES ASIDE.

I'm curious, if you do end up replying to this, at an earlier point in time you said something about taking Jarvan, Irelia and Nocturne and pushing their kits into more... specific roles, instead of "Hi, I'm tanky, I build Trinity Force and I do tons of damage. I'll be ****ing your carry today."

But I could be paraphrasing.

Do you have any rough, initial thoughts at all for what you want to do to those champions? Keep J4 closer to his tank role? Making Nocturne more of an Assassin? Trying to push Irelia into that "Stronger when out numbered, but not lolimatankwiththedamages"?
In the long-term, sure, we'd like to, though that's a little after a few other things. People are also really attached to this admittedly-bad design pattern, and anytime we do something unpopular, we have to weigh the disruption-to-player value ratio. In this case, if we take our time, I think we can get a good balance there.


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civ

Senior Member

12-05-2011

I think the decision on these speed/sustain changes need to come quickly given how ridiculous the current situation is. Right now ww can start any item and clear the jungle indefinitely without basing or using a single hp pot, but this doesn’t really matter since his ganks are worthless before 6.

His clearing should be really fast or at the very least faster than champions like udyr who have a really quick clear time and strong pre-six ganks.

Nerf his sustain, up his clear time, and maybe (this is a big maybe) give him something to make his pre-six ganks not laughable. My suggestion would be giving his blood scent an active that boosts movement speed for a short duration after activating it. Have pressing it twice within 2 seconds active that speed burst, while having a single press within 2 seconds active/deactivate the passive. It may sound a little clunky and i'm sure there's an easier way to make it work, but it’d at least give him some threat pre-six while also giving a small amount of skill to a painfully straightforward champion.


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Flaming June

Senior Member

12-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
In the long-term, sure, we'd like to, though that's a little after a few other things. People are also really attached to this admittedly-bad design pattern, and anytime we do something unpopular, we have to weigh the disruption-to-player value ratio. In this case, if we take our time, I think we can get a good balance there.
Yeah well people are gonna have to deal with it.

You have to be like the father that isn't afraid to take off his belt and bring the pain.

I'm glad we had this talk.


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WhiteVoidDragon

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Senior Member

12-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by civ View Post
I think the decision on these speed/sustain changes need to come quickly given how ridiculous the current situation is. Right now ww can start any item and clear the jungle indefinitely without basing or using a single hp pot, but this doesn’t really matter since his ganks are worthless before 6.

His clearing should be really fast or at the very least faster than champions like udyr who have a really quick clear time and strong pre-six ganks.

Nerf his sustain, up his clear time, and maybe (this is a big maybe) give him something to make his pre-six ganks not laughable. My suggestion would be giving his blood scent an active that boosts movement speed for a short duration after activating it. Have pressing it twice within 2 seconds active that speed burst, while having a single press within 2 seconds active/deactivate the passive. It may sound a little clunky and i'm sure there's an easier way to make it work, but it’d at least give him some threat pre-six while also giving a small amount of skill to a painfully straightforward champion.
its simple, there is no reason to detoggle his e unless you know someone is so low theyll run if they see the blood scent symbol(but who can escape the symbol?) so make it a regular passive with an active that doesnt stack with the passive


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Zachgoose

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12-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by civ View Post
I think the decision on these speed/sustain changes need to come quickly given how ridiculous the current situation is. Right now ww can start any item and clear the jungle indefinitely without basing or using a single hp pot, but this doesn’t really matter since his ganks are worthless before 6.

His clearing should be really fast or at the very least faster than champions like udyr who have a really quick clear time and strong pre-six ganks.

Nerf his sustain, up his clear time, and maybe (this is a big maybe) give him something to make his pre-six ganks not laughable. My suggestion would be giving his blood scent an active that boosts movement speed for a short duration after activating it. Have pressing it twice within 2 seconds active that speed burst, while having a single press within 2 seconds active/deactivate the passive. It may sound a little clunky and i'm sure there's an easier way to make it work, but it’d at least give him some threat pre-six while also giving a small amount of skill to a painfully straightforward champion.
Well, I don't think he needs buffed to THAT extent. Warwick just needs minor things that would help him out slightly in competing with other junglers. I don't want him to clear as fast as Udyr, or even buff his early ganks significantly.

What he does need is a small speed buff in the jungle early game. Warwick fills a unique niche of having a powerful level 6 gank, and that's a trait he should keep for more variety.

But right now Warwick is simply outclassed and as mentioned in earlier posts, he can easily be pushed around in the jungle. You're right about him having too much sustainability compared to speed, though. Heck, Warwick can probably jungle just fine with no items whatsoever!

However, nerfing his sustainability I disagree with. A lot of people do like to lane with him, and nerfing his laning abilities to buff his jungle would be disappointing to many people.


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Giantzee

Junior Member

12-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
In the long-term, sure, we'd like to, though that's a little after a few other things. People are also really attached to this admittedly-bad design pattern, and anytime we do something unpopular, we have to weigh the disruption-to-player value ratio. In this case, if we take our time, I think we can get a good balance there.
Not really related to WW's jungle (though I feel like lizard buff applying to hungering strike is a pretty good step for making WW's ganks in general better, even pre 6) but why is there an inconsistency in ability tracking between Jarvan's ult and other champions? (i.e. resonating strike, twisted advance etc)

and a more on topic question. Why are AoE centric junglers allowed to be so powerful? Udyr/Skarner are both very tanky by default, do fairly high damage, have decent ganks (other than the fact that they have to be within melee range to tag enemies, but that doesn't seem to be a problem considering how they both have movement steroids, Shyvana does too but she brings no hard CC) and clear the jungle at incredibly high speeds, allowing them to counter slower junglers like Fiddle, WW, Amumu etc. Not to say that other junglers aren't viable, I just find that these two in particular maintain a pretty high level of overall strength while also having really strong jungle farming capabilities

I understand that champions like Fiddle and WW have great jungle sustain, but its not like Skarner or Udyr lack in that department either. I mean they aren't really the same hero, every hero brings their own little thing to the table but for overall versatility I just feel like the aoe junglers are really strong right now and kind of fit into more teams than some of the single target junglers.