@Classick - The current state of Mundo

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Teekink

Senior Member

11-11-2011

This talks about the problem with Mundo that 95% of Mundo threads do not address. If you see this thread, and want to talk about straight up buffing Mundo, then please post somewhere else. This is to talk about changing Mundo to do well in both large fights and small fights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Classick View Post
It's going, I have had a bunch of larger tasks that distracted me from working on him.

Some current problems I have with Mundo is he becomes extremely problematic in small scale fighting (twisted tree line) and becomes rather useless in large scale fights (SR). Some other issues is that he does not scale that well into the late game, with the exception of having tons of health.

I would like to tone down his power slightly on TT and make him better on Summoner's Rift, also I'm hoping he will fall into the right place for Dominion with these changes.

I've also been trying hard to keep the feel that Mundo is extremely powerful at low amounts of health, it's generally a very hard thing to pull off in large scale fights such as 5v5 scenarios but I'm attempting to make it work. His kit generally tries to do this but instead of trying to homogenize Mundo to make him better I'd like to keep this feel and try making the kit lend its hand to this even better. Also, more importantly Mundo still needs to go where he pleases .

I don't want to go into very much detail about what I plan on doing with him, but a few high level things I'm fixing is Base Stats, allowing him to scale into the late game, and changes to his ultimate to further help him sustain at low health so he can take advantage of Masochism.

After the changes Mundo would be a good jungler or a good top lane. He would also have a lot of viable build options. HP stacking Mundo which is a generally more tanky build with sustained damage, or a glass cannon mundo that goes lots of AD with big crits.
Mundo has always been my favorite champion. I've played him through his very old rework, through TT, and now, through Dominion. I have a very solid grasp of what he is, and how he is supposed to perform. I've tried all the builds people have thought for him: tank, tanky dps, critmundo, mpen, AS, lifesteal, atmogs, 5 warmogs, etc. Mundo, as he stands right now, shines brightest as a tanky dps, and I believe that is where he should always be. The changes you propose only increase that, so I believe you are doing a very good thing.

I know I'm just a humble forum poster, but it would mean to world to me if you consider some of my ideas. I'm going into the field of game design myself, and I would love to see if I am on the right path.

Firstly, I'd say the only thing I don't love in your proposal is the ult. Taking advantage of Masochism is fun, but it is very risky, without too much reward. It also doesn't scale back Mundo's performance on TT. The lack of burst potential means that increased regen while on low health means that he would be basically unkillable. On the other hand, it would be very bad in SR, where there can be a lot more burst applied to Mundo. It doesn't help the main balancing problem of Mundo: he needs to do worse than he does in small fights and better than he does in big fights.

I think a much more effective way to change his ult would be to this:
Mundo regenerates X% of his total health. In addition, this amount is increased by X% for each nearby enemy champion.

This fixes some problems that the 'percent of health missing' change doesn't address. It tones him down on TT: there aren't as many champions on TT, so this is a hard nerf on TT. It also buffs him up on SR, for the opposite reason. It scales back his effectiveness in small fights, and pushes it foward in big ones. It lets him survive strong burst, and keeps Mundo in check in 1v1 fights. It does add some sustain, but not nearly as much as the current Sadism, or the 'percent of health missing' proposal.

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The next thing I was wondering is what you would think about giving the cleaver bonus damage based on the flat amount of health he is missing? For example: The Cleaver does 20% of their current health + 1% for every X (in the hundreds) health Mundo is missing. This helps his scaling late game due to the large amount of flat health he gets, while toning down his early game due to lack of flat amount of health. It also increases his damage while low, which is one of your goals. (Note that this doesn't force Mundo to build health, the goal should be for the cleaver to do the relatively same amount of damage it currently does, except increase it when Mundo is low)

I really don't have much to say about Burning Agony, I think it does its job perfectly.

I also love Adrenaline Rush as it is, it is very balanced and fits perfectly into Mundo's kit. People say that it doesn't help as much as it should, because of Mundo's health costs, comparing him to Garen, who has a passive that regenerates .5% of health every second while out of combat. I think part of the reason they think this is because they don't realize the main idea of Mundo: hurting yourself hurts the enemy. The health costs on your abilities are there because the abilities are so strong. Since you are buffing his base stats (which I am assuming includes his abilities), I think that that will help this theme of 'hurt me so I hurt you'.

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The last ability, Masochism, is what I am most curious about. I've thrown a lot of ideas around my head, as far as increasing damage while hurt. Right now, being at low health only doubles the damage he gets from one single ability. If it were his only source of being dangerous at low health, it should be a little more than double. As a Mundo player, I would love a masochism that gives 0 damage at full health and 300 damage at 1%. It would be less than the current Masochism above 50%, the same at 50%, and then becomes better when below 50%. Again, this further reinforces the whole 'hurt me so I hurt you' feel. There are many ways to make Masochism fun,

You said one of your goals was to make Mundo into a good Jungler. I previously thought that that was a bad place for Mundo, but after thinking about it, it could be fun. But, the biggest priority for Mundo is to change his strength in large team fights.

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I love Mundo, and I hate that I can't play him in SR due to how ineffective he is there. I play him with my lower level friends, and he works very well. But as people learn, Mundo's early game strength becomes rather tame. Hopefully, this rework will make Mundo a very viable choice again. If you read all this, thank you.

P.S. I think I read somewhere that Riot was going to remove the ignite healing debuff, and add more healing debuff items. Love the idea.

P.P.S. I copied this from the champion feedback forum because, frankly, I haven't seen anybody from Riot respond to this post.


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Saviour

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Senior Member

11-11-2011

Please, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE fix mundo. This guy really wants him to be fixed.


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Classick

Game Designer

11-11-2011
1 of 1 Riot Posts

Good post, you have some very interesting ideas in here. Specifically the idea with the cleaver is intriguing as I had a different way of accomplishing the same goal but it is a little bit unclear in comparison to this. Will certainly consider this post when I get back to finishing up his rework(soon I hope). Thanks for the feedback


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Teekink

Senior Member

11-11-2011

O_O holy ****. Well ****, you are welcome, lol. Cheers on the remake!


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CupcakeTrap

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Senior Member

11-11-2011

I like Mundo as a TANKY (dps), rather than the more usual (tanky) DPS.

Friend: "The thing about laning against Mundo is tha-CLEAVER TO THE FACE ... CLEAVER TO THE FACE."

Beautiful Q. Terrifying harass. Fun skill to use.

He's pretty tanky, but with some bite (rather than a bunch of CC/knockup/AoE). I like that.

I thought Classick's point about it being hard to do the "low health fighter" thing in 5v5 was interesting. Perhaps give his ult something like a Poppy Passive ability? Or an Alistar ult aspect? Or just a big shield?


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Ralmaz

Senior Member

11-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Classick View Post
Good post, you have some very interesting ideas in here. Specifically the idea with the cleaver is intriguing as I had a different way of accomplishing the same goal but it is a little bit unclear in comparison to this. Will certainly consider this post when I get back to finishing up his rework(soon I hope). Thanks for the feedback
Soon? You mean like Sivir soon?


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cheddardust

Senior Member

11-11-2011

Good Post.

Also The Crystal Scar Aura needs a rework for champs like Mundo, Vlad and Mordekaiser.


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RinValak

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Senior Member

11-11-2011

Awesome news, and good post Teekink.

-Mundo fan


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Sahren

Senior Member

11-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralmaz View Post
Soon? You mean like Sivir soon?
omg, thats why "Soon" its so famous


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Harvester

Senior Member

11-11-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralmaz View Post
Soon? You mean like Sivir soon?
The only reason that thread is still showing up is because it has been necro'ed multiple times. Riot made a proposal, they didn't end up using it, and people end up accidentally finding that one when they're looking up sivir and riot posts pertaining to her. Soooooo stop it.

Anyway, YAY, Mundo changes! Eventually, but yay, they're looking at him!