Playing for Personal Score Vs. Playing for Win

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Tenebrae Corvus

Senior Member

11-05-2011

I agree with most of it. It's better to contribute to the team than playing solo. Aggression is useful but has to be used with moderation. If you constantly draw three enemies to your bot but you always end dead and losing it you aren't helping. However, if they can't cap it and you hold it enough for your teammates to kill an enemy or cap another point, you are doing a good job.


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Cauldrath

Senior Member

11-05-2011

This is probably the number 1 reason I see that causes games to be unwinnable. Map presence and control is everything and you don't contribute that if all you do is jump in, finish someone off, and recall over and over again. I'm sick of going 0/3/15 in games full of teammates who die to a light breeze, never hold points, jump in after I've done all the work, take the point, and just leave. (This, of course, leads them to complain about me after the game ends.) Having 1, maybe 2, people who just stay at the fringes and do damage during a team fight is fine, as long as they fight with everyone else. Having 3-4? Autolose unless the other team is just as bad. I've carried games by going full-tank Alistar with a team like that, but it is extremely hard and I wind up with an absolutely terrible score, plus being way behind in gold.


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Narogsun

Senior Member

11-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cauldrath View Post
This is probably the number 1 reason I see that causes games to be unwinnable. Map presence and control is everything and you don't contribute that if all you do is jump in, finish someone off, and recall over and over again. I'm sick of going 0/3/15 in games full of teammates who die to a light breeze, never hold points, jump in after I've done all the work, take the point, and just leave. (This, of course, leads them to complain about me after the game ends.) Having 1, maybe 2, people who just stay at the fringes and do damage during a team fight is fine, as long as they fight with everyone else. Having 3-4? Autolose unless the other team is just as bad. I've carried games by going full-tank Alistar with a team like that, but it is extremely hard and I wind up with an absolutely terrible score, plus being way behind in gold.
there is much worst that people that only finish off near dead enemies , you can hide in grass and only take turrets that are completely save and already being taken and you get to be second and third place cos this is how the score system rewards .


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NetherGate

Senior Member

11-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mailius View Post
You mean aggro, as in aggression? It's not like the built in spellchecker freaks out over "agro" or anything.

This seems like an overly long post about how wasting your opponent's time is a winning strategy, which was known around the time the map mode came out.

You don't have to kill people every 30 seconds or you're wasting time, because in those 30 seconds you are alive, and they are not, and you can do capture related things in that time period.
Thanks for your response. Yes, you are right that this is an overly long post about how wasting your opponent's time is a winning strategy, but there is more to it than that, the how the why which is necessary. It is also about how there is a major issue in the scoring system regaurding this and it is discouraging teamwork.

Agro is short for aggression, and it has been spelled "agro" in shorthand in many games prior to this one.

And you are right that you can use the seconds that they are dead to take a turret, but only if circumstances allow it. Overall mathematically it is just significantly less efficient than other strategies, and that means it will fail to others in the long run. To understand why, review the article again please. Many strategies that sound good and seem to make sense are fail in practice. If they are solo defending a turret, and you kill them it will work, but again, read the article to see why I advise against that. Not so easily done against the other agro related strategies I outlined.

It can be frustrating to hear someone tell you that you are playing wrong, I'm sorry for that. Its not just that "wasting opponents time" is a winning strategy, its that agro dodging is completely fail, and when you win, you are being carried to the direct contradiction of the personal score. I was very detailed on exactly how and why.

I apologize for the harsh tone of this response, I really do appreciate your input. I've just had FAR too many useless trolls on my teams that had no concern for the win at all and just went for score, getting me killed over and over to do it, and insulting me afterwards. Ya man, sit in the bushes and force me to defend 1v3 and wait until Im dead and Ive almost killed 2 of them to jump out and help. This may or may not be your playstyle, but I absolutely stand by the strategies I outlined, I've seen them play out exactly like that hundreds of times.

This would work itself out naturally if Riot fixed the broken scoring system to calculate agro, as opposed to pitting players against each other who are just trying to do their best.

Thanks bro, take it easy.


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NetherGate

Senior Member

11-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cauldrath View Post
This is probably the number 1 reason I see that causes games to be unwinnable. Map presence and control is everything and you don't contribute that if all you do is jump in, finish someone off, and recall over and over again. I'm sick of going 0/3/15 in games full of teammates who die to a light breeze, never hold points, jump in after I've done all the work, take the point, and just leave. (This, of course, leads them to complain about me after the game ends.) Having 1, maybe 2, people who just stay at the fringes and do damage during a team fight is fine, as long as they fight with everyone else. Having 3-4? Autolose unless the other team is just as bad. I've carried games by going full-tank Alistar with a team like that, but it is extremely hard and I wind up with an absolutely terrible score, plus being way behind in gold.
I would agree with some of what you say, and disagree with another part. There are times when it is best to defend, such as at the choke points described below, or the when you are outnumbered in lane and CANT push. However, thats it... sending 3 of your team out to face 5 opponents while 2 of your team sit idle, is fail. That math speaks for itself. Also review the portion of my article that I pasted below please. Thank you very much for your response.

"The "get 3 turrets and hold them" strategy, is one that I believed in for a while when Dominion was newer than it is now and I had less experience in it. It is a completely flawed strategy for the most part, although it does have its place, like if there is only 10 seconds or less until you win. The flaw in it outside of those circumstances is that you wont be able to hold 3 turrets against an experience team. There is no way. At best you guard your turrets 2-1-2? So they jump the solo protected turret with 3 champs. Then they have 3 and you have 2. It wont last long this way unless they suck. Now, if you have 3 turrets, but your whole team aggressively attacks their remaining turrets, what happens? ****ed if they do, ****ed if they dont. If they defend their 2 turrets, then your other turrets are safe because they arent being attacked, and their nexus it ticking down all the while. If they let you have the turrets and go for your undefended turrets, well, you gained 2 turrets and lost 1 or 2, and you still have the majority. I dont believe Ive ever seen them scatter and take 3 turrets while your team takes 2, ever. If you can push all the way back and take one of their closest turrets, this IS a good place to defend while your team tries to 5 cap. If you can 5 cap even momentarily, you can defend 2-3 with a 2 turret choke point. This rarely holds for too long, but hit holds significantly longer than 2-1-2 holding 3 turrets, and they get their nexus DRILLED. Even when they fight and get back 2 turrets, you are still drilling their nexus. This strategy is a digression, but it does involve agro, and it is also wrecked by agro dumpers."


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NetherGate

Senior Member

11-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenebrae Corvus View Post
I agree with most of it. It's better to contribute to the team than playing solo. Aggression is useful but has to be used with moderation. If you constantly draw three enemies to your bot but you always end dead and losing it you aren't helping. However, if they can't cap it and you hold it enough for your teammates to kill an enemy or cap another point, you are doing a good job.
Well ya dude, like I totally said, how much agro you can handle. If you cant handle the agro of 3 dont do it.... UNLESS you have to in order to stall them so that your team mates on the other side of the map can finish a turret and whatnot. The simple fact of the matter is that this strategy is beast if applied by all individuals on the team. I has a different dynamic then. If you are facing 3 opponents yourself in said strategy, whats going on elsewhere on the map? It all depends on how much time you need to buy. If you can keep 3 of them occupied for say 20 seconds, nice. Try it with a good team, watch your minimap constantly, watch your team dominate them map.

Peace bro.


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NetherGate

Senior Member

11-05-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narogsun View Post
there is much worst that people that only finish off near dead enemies , you can hide in grass and only take turrets that are completely save and already being taken and you get to be second and third place cos this is how the score system rewards .
Ya man. So while they are just focused on racking up those points, they arent actually contributing anything, and its just a 4v5. And how often do you win with an AFK in dom? Yet, their score says they were awesome.


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Narcomancer

Senior Member

11-05-2011

It was a little long winded to read, but, you clearly made your point, and I find it irrefutable. I've played both ways, largely based on which champ I'm using, but while I was reading your post, the accuracy of your statements was surprising. I remembered playing multiple specific games that went exactly how you said, and now I more clearly understand why. This post has had a huge impact on my understanding and view of map control and game flow in dominion, not to mention teamwork. I think its going to change how I play significantly. But what about the buff in the center, and the speed boosts? Out of curiousity, what is your elo, and what are your favorite champs?


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MacDizel

Junior Member

11-05-2011

wow~ I must say this is one of the best most thought out posts I've read in years. (35 years gaming 18 yrs online) That being said I would suggest this thread be "stickied" just for a thought provoking/ suggested learning. I myself only play dominion... I play as alistar a very humbling toon to play... and I do it because I CAN change the games outcome. I have enough power to hurt you and enough ability to not just take you off YOUR turret , but to take it from you. However most often my k/d ratio is poor (to many dont understand dom imo) but I win a heck a lot more than I lose . I am a noob here (35-40 days playing league of legends .. 330+ dominion wins though.)


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KinTantee

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Junior Member

11-05-2011

Yeah I also have to agree here with the solo team mate blaming losing on the #####y team. I have seen this guy run in and out of combat and yet blame everyone else for there lack of team ability. And they will call you out for being the snail and being called out like that makes your team morale go down. I play Caitlyn and I can hold a point and push you to yours easily 1 v 1 but, I am usually 3 v 1 and lose my point. Even though I ping the map and alert my team to either take another of theirs during the 3 v 1 or come help. And if they do neither I can walk away 3rd place at least and still be blamed for the short comings of the team. For losing my point to a 3 v 1.

I think its sad that a score who## will come in and blow apart a team like that because he cant get his kills to a positive number. But, I have won many with the whole team in negative k/d ratio and lost with most of the team in super positive k/d's. The scoring needs to be reworked with less points on the kill and more on the defend and capture side.

Great Post.


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