Zilean: “But I'm a Pacifist!” The Chronokeeper

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Craixis

Senior Member

06-01-2010

Its divided into parts so you can take what you need... Just read the headers and you'll be fine (they're bolded, hard to miss)


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mesasone

Junior Member

06-02-2010

I just picked up Zilean yesterday and am really liking him. I will almost certainly be purchasing him once the free week is over. I've only played a handful of games and don't have any illusions of being pro, but here is how I'm building Z (I thank your guide for putting me in this direction):

Starting out I get a Sapphire Crystal + 2 health pots. Assuming I don't do something stupid and die early, I try not to go back until I can build a catalyst and grab a pair of boots. From there I grab a Blasting Ward and build a Rod of Ages. Next I build Archangel's Staff, and finally I build a Glacial Shroud.

I know it's quite a bit more expensive than your build, but I think I like the Rod of Ages better than the Spirit Visage. Sure, it's about twice the cost but when you get the RoA fully charged, it's giving you 650 health, 725 mana and approx. 98 AP (including the bonus from the AA Staff) - about 295HP on your revive. Finally, the Glacial Shroud gives you an additional 425 mana (approx 10 AP from AA staff), 8% more cooldown vs the Visage and a nice 45 armor which combined with the health of the Rod of Ages allows you to take a few hits if you get caught with your pants down. All in all you have a massive mana pool such that spamming your skills is no problem at all.

The only thing I wonder about is whether I should build the Rod of Ages or Archangel's Staff first. I'm leaning towards the Rod first since the mana and HP refill when you level from the Catalyst is really nice early on and by the time you build your Archangel's staff the Rod of Ages should just about be fully charged. But on the other hand, getting a head start on filling that staff would be nice too, seeing as IF you cast a spell EVERY 3 seconds the fastest you could fill up the staff is 12 minutes, and how likely is that?

For summoners spells, I've been taking Teleport and Clarity - the later is of course great for filling up your mana pool at all stages of the game.

Total cost is 7900G, which should be pretty doable.

EDIT: I did give your build a go in a couple of games and like it too... the Spirit Visage is a quite a bit more effective than I imagined. I finished it off with Void Staff and Sorc. boots which breathes a bit life into your bombs late game.


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Craixis

Senior Member

06-02-2010

Aye, RoA isn't a bad item on Zil, just his bombs don't really need the AP to still do decent damage (double bomb a backline minion when an enemy champ's nearby, they'll regret being there), it can still net you kills and the like if needed (just my last few games I've been carrying), it's still an offensive build, just it hits harder early on and then switches focus to team fights later on (intead of just being the standard nuker, like Ryze).

What I like about my build is that I don't need Clarity to be able to do anything on it, as my mana is seemingly endless (hence the Chalice and Archangel's Staff), and maxing the cooldown reduction allows you to get Rewind down to 3.6 seconds (and Chrono down to 84 seconds I do belive). My build covers the high cost of constant Chronoshifts, while also allowing rewind spam. It's reason the build is titled "But I'm a Pacifist", as you never have to actually time bomb anything after the Chalice, but you still end up being one of the most threatening characters on the other team.

This build also suits Zilean's Support side over nuke side (late game), I (personally) can't seem to find a happy medium with it (still, Archangel's makes your Time Bombs hurt until mid-late game, while Chrono and Time Warp cover the rest... Rewind has its place in both). I may need to try a Catalyst, though I've never been a fan of RoAs outside of Anivia, and Glacial Shroud is a good item if you need armor over M resist (as I said, my build is more focused on surviving casters, as they're the one's who are going to be able to kill yeah in 2 seconds while physical carries you can always slow down and run)


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PosPosPos

Senior Member

06-02-2010

I rather pick clarity and stack AP/CDR. This allows me to support and nuke with near infinite amount of mana as well.


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kamia

Member

06-02-2010

Yes, support, zilean is support.
You can build AP Zilean towards late game, but he's just not that good in this area. HE has a total of ONE offensive nuke (if you count rewind plus bomb again, then maybe 2, but still considered 1).
He's role as a strong nuker (unless you are fed, meaing, mejas with a good amount of stacks on it) ends towards mid ~ late/mid game where people start to build most of their items. Your role here delegates to being support, and tossing up those AOE bombs in team fights.

Really, Zilean is more sustained DPS than burst potential, sure he can drop the bombs down pretty fast, but I always find it in his role, he can really sustain his damage through max CDR and Rewind @ 3.6 (i wish it was back to 3.2) and Bombs, and the fact you can turn a team mate practically invincible every 30 seconds

-it is actually lower, it's 120 second on Chornoshift level 3
-with 40% CDR that's .6 * 120 = 72 seconds,
-rewind is 3.6 seconds @ max CDR and level 5
-so in theory, it should take us 72 * 13.6x = 0 or rather 5.29 Rewinds with the wait time in between to get it down to ready status
-5.29 * 3.6 =~ 19.04 seconds
-3 x a minute... if you spammed rewind as soon as you used your ult

Which I find more useful than doing that extra 200 damage, to help your other carry to get up and do their damage

At least in a sustained push, this helps a lot. Slowing down those melee's before they can reach your ranged carry line will really help too... and then the chasing and running and kiting part, which i find hilarous when I can kite a melee and bomb him to death slowly ... only to be limited by MP

Am I saying that AP is totally unnecessary? No, definitely not, he by far benefits from AP, but stacking AP on the other hand, at least to me, is secondary in the case of Zilean.

Yes if you do get 300 AP that's a ridiculously amount of extra HP towards chornoshift revive, but rarely do I see zilean run around with that much AP, unless previously said, he is fed. His bursting potential compared to other caster carries are just not as potent.


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Craixis

Senior Member

06-02-2010

Chronoshift is 140 seconds at level 3,(84 seconds with 40% cooldown), just to fix a mistake there.
And I agree, AP isn't really needed on Zilean to still be able to do his job, he's one of the few casters who can repeatably nuke an enemy without pulling out because "something's on cooldown", making him very strong in team fights as the AoE damage adds up.
Oh and for the Chronoshift
84 - 10(1) = 74 - 3.6 (1)
70.4 - 10 = 60.4 - 3.6 (2)
56.8 - 10 = 46.8 - 3.6 (3)
43.2 - 10 = 33.2 - 3.6 (4)
29.6 - 10 = 19.6 - 3.6 (5)
16 - 10 = 6 - 3.6 (6)
2.4 - 10 = Cooldown
7 rewinds, so 6(3.6) = 21.6, if the math is right (we use 6 instead of 7 because rewind has its own cooldown, which is 3.6 seconds, the last rewind, we do not need to wait for its cooldown)


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Yagharek

Junior Member

06-15-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craixis View Post
Items XX07:

Sapphire Crystal
Fairy Charm (Though usually you can skip this and get Tear of the Goddess on your return trip for mana)
Tear of the Goddess
Blasting Wand (hmm... AP...)
Archangel's Staff (MANA!!!)
Null Magic Mantal (O..k?)
Rejuvenation Bead (Hp regen?)
Spirit Visage (Cooldowns + M Resist + Extra Health on Revive... for yourself if you need it)
Boots of Speed (Either Sorc boots or Merc Treads work here, M Treads if there's plenty of CCs flying)
Null Magic Mantal
Meki Pendant
Challice of Harmony (7.5 Mana regen + 1% per 1% of mana you're missing... fixes one of the problems with this build)
This is a terrible build and the items show why - there is no clear plan of any sort here. You are getting mana, MR, and cooldowns... but absolutely no HP. no armor, very little AP. You are a paperweight and contribute little to team fights. All that MR may be useless depending on team composition. Zilean doesn't need HP regen, because he shouldn't be tanking.

I build Zilean in an AP/cooldown style, I don't think he needs much in the way of other stats with the exception of some hp/mana for survival. He also doesn't need a ton of mana, I think archangel's is overkill. I tried a low-mana build once against Veigar and now I never go back. Clarity is required though. Typical item build is:

Meki Pendant & 2 HP pots
Boots
Catalyst (survivability/regen)
Mejai's (you should not die and will get tons of assists there is no reason this will not be stacked 10+ in any game. Get it first if you have an easy lane)
Codex
Boots2 (almost always Merc so you can zoom away with ease)
Rod of Ages
Deathfire Grasp (tank eating item)

Game will usually end here. If not, buy whatever you like - Rylai's and Zhonya's are obvious choices, but survivability items (SS, FM) are equally valid, all depends on the game.

The goal is to not take damage. With Time Warp you should quickly teach the enemy team that chasing you is futile. Whittle them down with time bombs and help your allies escape and chase with tons of Warps. The key to using your ulti is casting it at the last possible second, right before you expect a death, but you have to account for possible stuns and silences. Otherwise, smart opponents will switch targets when they see the hourglasses.

I just don't see the benefit of ignoring AP on Zilean... he stays alive just fine with a well-rounded AP build, can still have enough mana to cast all his spells as needed, and maximizes his contribution to the team.


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Craixis

Senior Member

06-16-2010

Fool, don't tell me how to play Zilean with an item build like that (kidding)

I get what you're trying to do Yag, but really... I've done the research on my build, let me throw a few facts at cha.
My early game is benefitted greatly by Archangel's... why? The AP from it.
Oddly enough, that item you say is "overkill" is actually really powerful, as it gives you 45 AP right off the bat, + .025(mana) AP. Its got a very large mana regen rate (at 25 per 5), and a high base mana increase (at 400). It also continues the stacking of your TotG, so you'll have about 1400 mana by the time its done (lets see, that's an extra 35 AP on top of the 45 I just got). It also covers more then what your first 4 items do, (stick that in your pipe and smoke it!)

The Blasting Wand also makes your Timebomb's ability to farm incredible... and it makes you a force to be feared (sure, I may not be able to do much after I double bomb, but when I take off over half a target's HP, they stay back). Oh, and you get this 1000g sooner then your Archangels, which it also works into.

Your build also needs to be a bit more thought out, the way you have it you have to somehow get 2525 G before you even get AP, and another 815g after that before you get a snowball item...

You're not a tank, you're a Nuker/support, you need damage (you're also playing him carry, swap that Meki's out for a Sapphire Crystal then rush the Catalyst sooner, so you can get Mejai's sooner to reap the benefit, you're packing Clarity, you don't need the M regen till later, and you should be focusing on leveling anyway, which the Catalyst helps with). I'd suggest heavily rethinking your build Yag, it may be working now, but you're gonna see it faulter the more you play (you have at least tried my build right?)

And AP on Zilean is decent, but not great... as its easily shut down by magic resist (remember, Void staff counters 40% of the enemies current magic resist, if they have 400 M resist, you punch through 160, they still take 66% less damage). My build doesn't need to stack AP to be effective, as it utilizes his real strength, his low cooldowns (and your build doesn't even get AP until mid game and beyond anyway, while mine has it in spades early game).

Which is why I switch to anti magic and cooldown reduction along with mana regen, very rarely do you see a team with 0 magic damage (most of the teams in higher ELOS have at least one caster, if not two), my build can survive the nuke damage they put out for a cheap cost, while still dishing out damage itself (oh and I also farm effectively, which makes finishing my build much easier then yours, as you can't deal the same damage I can until you get 7kills with your soulstealer.) I don't get armor/health because physical carries don't deal instant damage, I can always slow them, pop ghost, and get out of dodge before they deal any threatening damage to yours truly.


"Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?"-Sun Tzu
This build is a great example of what Zilean can do if given the resources. Try it out, and see how "bad" the items really are.

Oh and refer to Thou Shalt read this MFing thread. To see where this style of play is coming from
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...ad.php?t=71443


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Yagharek

Junior Member

06-16-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craixis View Post
Your build also needs to be a bit more thought out, the way you have it you have to somehow get 2525 G before you even get AP, and another 815g after that before you get a snowball item... [/url]
Before you can comfortably chain-cast your spells there is no point in getting AP, or anything other than hp/mana/regen. Your #1 job is to be able to cast everything you have as needed, you are useless as OOM. So of course I think regen+cata are your first priority, mobility second, AP stacking third. Stay alive, stay casting, stay relevant. But what else is there? Your build has less regen early game (when it is most needed), less survivability midgame (the ganking phase, when it matters most), and less AP lategame (when your main role is to snipe, slow and rez, not tank), and it is supposed to be the "support build"? And this "AP Zilean" is the "glass cannon"? That doesn't make any sense to me. Finally, regardless of build, no Zilean has any issues farming, because TB&rewind&TB flattens creep waves. (Remember to TB yourself when jungling, so they don't aggro until it goes off.) If you have a nice Mejais stack you can one-bomb ranged creeps, which is convenient, but not a huge difference.


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Craixis

Senior Member

06-16-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yagharek View Post
Before you can comfortably chain-cast your spells there is no point in getting AP, or anything other than hp/mana/regen. Your #1 job is to be able to cast everything you have as needed, you are useless as OOM.
Hold up a minute, this is exactly what my build does, outside of the HP (instead, I get AP). Both builds have their strengths, mine utilizes nukes early game, yours utilizes survivability (which Zilean shouldn't need, refer to "chronoshift").

Quote:
Your build has less regen early game (when it is most needed), less survivability midgame (the ganking phase, when it matters most), and less AP lategame (when your main role is to snipe, slow and rez, not tank), and it is supposed to be the "support build"?
My build has a higher base mana (and its easy enough to farm 580 to upgrade to a Tear of the Goddess early game) to get that mana regen, there's more to survivability then just health (M resist/armor is survivability). Your able to chain spells at end game instead of "Sniping", which I do early game. I rely more on the "chain cast" to help my team, rather then snipe.

Quote:
That doesn't make any sense to me. Finally, regardless of build, no Zilean has any issues farming, because TB&rewind&TB flattens creep waves. (Remember to TB yourself when jungling, so they don't aggro until it goes off.) If you have a nice Mejais stack you can one-bomb ranged creeps, which is convenient, but not a huge difference.
Yeah, you can still farm, but not as quickly (that instant kill of that backline minion can end up killing entire creep waves before they move and screw up the AoE). Oh, and "if" you have a nice Mejai's Stack, which isn't happening when you're behind. (my build can still farm/push/harass effectively even when I've died twice...)

Oh and about your build again, rush the Catalyst then pick up a Blasting Wand, it should cover you for mana/survivability as you recover more when you level up ("He's OOM, get him! Oh hell he dinged, run, RUN!") making it easier to farm (it also works into the RoA faster). It also grants killing potential, making that Mejai's invest later on actually worth while.

Edit: And on another note, I love how no one has pointed out that I've said "Zilean doesn't need AP" and I'm now trying to justify why you get AP... Yeah for hind sight!