The Frustration With Personal Score

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Amaduez

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Senior Member

09-27-2011

One time this guy just kept running around and grabbing kills. He got the highest PS, then abused me for having the lowest and I was the biggest noob, considering I held a base THE ENTIRE GAME.

I was a little bit frustrated - considering this dude lost the game for us.


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cF Dawgy

Senior Member

09-27-2011

You're not a feeder; you're a martyr.


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Bananaphone

Senior Member

09-27-2011

or how about stopping a cap to headbutt an enemy away so your friend continues to cap, your action alone allowed for the capture of the turret, but you gain 10 points and your friend gains 30 and 100g


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NakedGranny

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Senior Member

09-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
This is something that was discussed a lot during development. I generally think the personal score system is a positive, but it could certainly use refinement. I play tanks a lot during our development playtests so I can definitely appreciate what you're saying. Many times defensive players that we all agree made great contributions weren't rewarded by the personal score system as much. It's something the designers are looking at.

However, I would say that even if an intangible is not impossible to measure, it can be very difficult to accomplish or make the system too complex. There's definitely a trade-off from adding to the system and we're searching for the right balance.
i hear a lot of "B'AWWWWWW, game design is haaaaaard!"

you get paid for work that you do. not for playing LoL all day at work....


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Tyroie

Senior Member

09-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by NakedGranny View Post
i hear a lot of "B'AWWWWWW, game design is haaaaaard!"

you get paid for work that you do. not for playing LoL all day at work....
Game designers who try to force a complex solution onto a difficult problem commonly make mistakes and hurt their game, no matter how awesome they think they are.

Humility and caution are good traits, especially when you're designing a game with an established, massive audience.

They will probably gather data, which will make them more confident about gradually fiddling with it and adding more complex additions later on.


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Want2mess

Senior Member

09-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
This is something that was discussed a lot during development. I generally think the personal score system is a positive, but it could certainly use refinement. I play tanks a lot during our development playtests so I can definitely appreciate what you're saying. Many times defensive players that we all agree made great contributions weren't rewarded by the personal score system as much. It's something the designers are looking at.

However, I would say that even if an intangible is not impossible to measure, it can be very difficult to accomplish or make the system too complex. There's definitely a trade-off from adding to the system and we're searching for the right balance.
Just make the whole "Defending" thing worth more points. Instead of 5 make it 10 etc.


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b0rg

Senior Member

09-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by boourns View Post
This is something that was discussed a lot during development. I generally think the personal score system is a positive, but it could certainly use refinement. I play tanks a lot during our development playtests so I can definitely appreciate what you're saying. Many times defensive players that we all agree made great contributions weren't rewarded by the personal score system as much. It's something the designers are looking at.

However, I would say that even if an intangible is not impossible to measure, it can be very difficult to accomplish or make the system too complex. There's definitely a trade-off from adding to the system and we're searching for the right balance.
There's obviously no way to make personal score perfectly reflect your contribution to the game, but the current system is too heavily weighted to completing a cap (+40, even if you right-click at the last minute.)


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Morello

Lead Designer

09-27-2011
2 of 7 Riot Posts

Good thread and discussion.

I agree that while I love personal score as a system, the specifics need to reward defensive and disruption play better. We'll be working on this to improve it!


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boourns

UI Designer

09-27-2011
3 of 7 Riot Posts

I'll give you guys a sense of the scale of the problem: If we could create a scoring system that encompassed the rules of "correct" play, what we would do is create bots that maximized their score and unleash them as pro level dominion bots.


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Tenmar

Senior Member

09-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Good thread and discussion.

I agree that while I love personal score as a system, the specifics need to reward defensive and disruption play better. We'll be working on this to improve it!
It's not even rewarding defensive play it's just that you CAN'T have a scoring system that rewards GOOD JUDGEMENT. The most important plays are the most subtle of decisions. The choice to go and heal, the choice to zone your opponent from the brush, the choice to simply distract your opponent, and the choice to farm minions for the KEY item to tilt the tide of battle into your favor. These are things that often don't reward ANY points yet are critical factors to the game.

A good deal of players here honestly think cause they get the highest points mean they did the most for the team but it is quite the contrary. Right now most of the points that are given reward BAD judgement and simply just give points for simply being unique factors to a capture point mode. Healing, storm buff, Martyr and being passive sitting on the node doing nothing proactive are all terrible methods to tell players "you are playing capture point correctly and we are going to reward you".

It just goes back to my main criticism of your design and how you as a company look at the MOBA genre and its relation to E-sports. The biggest thing you always miss is that you look at the MOBA genre and see the PVP and PVE elements divided and at ends. You see the PVP as champion team fights and want encourage players to always chase, kill and get the highest score possible. You see the PVE as mandatory objectives that if a champion is too good at they get nerfed or remade because they can either actually complete the PVE objective alone or can monopolize on player neglect when you want the PVE objective to be completed as a team.

The problem with this outlook is that the PVE and PVP are one. The strength of the MOBA is that you turn a mundane PVE objective into a PVP objective by the simple virtue that you actually have an opposing team that is after the same goal as you. While WC3's multiplayer could only really have the goal be deathmatch(to which I wonder why hasn't this been created yet?), the MOBA could take other PVE objectives and turn them from mundane fights against AI such as destroying a nexus or capture point and convert them into dynamic PVP objectives. You not only have to work with four other humans but you must also outwit or through sheer brute force overcome your opponents as both teams focus on the objective.

I can't think of a better example that demonstrates your problem than with your shoutcasting and tournaments as you pursue being recognized as an E-sport. If you actually look back and watch the games you will notice that all the commentary is always on the champions and team fights. Now, put yourself in the shoes of a person who wants to play this game. What do you think they will take away from watching the tournament on how to win, getting champion kills or destroying the nexus? For a person who doesn't play video games at all, it's going to be the former. There is no education or constant coverage telling new viewers HOW TO WIN. That's a huge problem when they do decide that they want to play your product and then be reminded by some veteran that going after champion kills isn't actually how you win. Your shoutcasters have effectively set up the old bait and switch. You promise them dynamic PVP of deathmatch combat, what they get is objective based PVP where one of the last things they should be doing is going for champion kills. These players are going to be turned off knowing that the majority of their time is going to be spent destroying turrets, farming minions or now preventing nodes from being captured. You have effectively deceived your viewers on accident.

You need to go back and cultivate the player base and new players that actually working as a team and defeating your opponents by completing the objective is fun. They need to know if they are watching a tournament for the first time that new viewers will understand what each team needs to do to win.

You also shouldn't be trying to separate the PVP and PVE from the MOBA genre. Yeah sure you do have to worry about champion balance but you shouldn't nerf champs that implement new strategies. One man's backdoor is another man's lane neglect. How many TF players do you know actually take a turret at full health head on by himself and destroy the turret? Not many I bet, and that's just one example. Yeah a champ that can run up to a turret and tank it and solo it from 100% hp to 0% hp is a problem and that's the types of nerfs you should be focused on. Number based nerfs. If a champ's damage output of healing output becomes too strong or weak that should be your main focus of the balance team not preventing strategies utilizing unique champs to flourish.

Embrace the power of the MOBA and create unique and new PVE objectives that players can compete with each other turning them into PVP objectives. Many FPS games have already embraced this like TF2, Unreal, and even Battlefield. Sure you can have a bunch of bots but what makes the MOBA unique is that I am part of a team of players who without my team cannot win the day against another group of people through the conflict develop an enjoyable experience as we see which team for that one game worked better together, had more power, or had the better strategy to claim victory. 100 team fights isn't going to make this game anymore fun unless that is the main objective, you can drive people to play a certain way. Right now, you really aren't teaching people the right way to play. And before you dissent saying there isn't a "right" way to play, then that means I can play this game however I want to play without any sort of recourse of being banned but that's why we have the tribunal because you acknowledges there is a right way to play this game and that's what you should be focused on.

Your youtube video on dominion was a good start because the first thing that appeared what "HOW TO WIN". You need to use that example and have your shoutcasters explain to the viewers how each team can claim victory. To educate and entertain viewers so when they do join a match they will understand how to win, some of the nuance and some of the jargon. Shoutcasters are a wonderful tool of educating new players subconsciously on how to win and much more.


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