Champion Balance and Dominion beta

First Riot Post
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Shini Laser

Senior Member

09-26-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Friei View Post
Out of curiosity what drove the design decision to make armor so very bad on dominion? I feel with free 20% pen the correct answer is to either build health or not build a defense stat at all. Obviously armor is a much worse stat in dominion than classic.
Free 20% pen? 15%. Even if it was 20%, say you get, oh, Thornmail and Frozen Heart. That is a nice 160 armor and lots of CDR - pretty much to the point they have to consider a Last Whisper if they really want to kill you with speed. I mean, dunno about you, but spending 5k on 20% CDR and 170 (how much those two are truly worth) armor sounds a lot more appealing than spending 5k on health items.


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Hyphnx

Member

09-26-2011

Why would you not include balance changes in the release? This is beyond sad. You can't play who you want and win.


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Dr´zzt

Junior Member

09-26-2011

LB is really strong on Dominion, Just one shotting people, can kite strongly with her E Tanky DPS, low CD on her ult, just plain good


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Ballcoozy

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Senior Member

09-26-2011

Alistar is really a strong champ. Can turret dive and defend a turret like a boss.


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PrepareToLoseKid

Junior Member

09-26-2011

@Morello :

I just played you in dominion 5v5(I was akali, you were leona iirc)

As you can tell our Janan became pretty much useless fairly quickly into the match. What can you say about the role support champs will have in dominion, if any? It seems almost like a waste of burst dps/cc slot after just 4 or 5 minutes


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Morello

Lead Designer

09-27-2011
18 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atani View Post
But in total the community has played thousands of times as many games and can conglomerate opinions. Obviously there will be ridiculous bandwaggoning into certain directions but there is value there if you can find it. You've been extremely dismissive of basically every opinion and I think that's short-sighted. You're relying on an extremely limited sample, not in terms of games played per player but number of different players playing. Most players have huge strengths and weaknesses and only play certain champions, causing your small pool to sink into weird metas that wouldn't necessarily develop in the wild.

You've stated that conclusions can't be reached until the metas have been fleshed out more and more games have been played, but I would argue that it was IMPOSSIBLE for your internal testing to ever do that, no matter how many games you played. There simply aren't enough people in your internal testing pool to mature and evolve the Dominion game as far as it could go.

If everyone played a few games and all noticed a certain champion was out of hand, that's pretty strong evidence, even if they didn't play five hundred games over the week of beta.

For example, you've said that mages were strong in internal testing and the community likes fighters/assassins. It could be that in internal testing your players were much stronger mage players than specific fighter/assassin players, maybe they played too aggressive or too passive when they were playing fighters and it didn't show the true strength. With the disorganization and the need to 1v1 often, divers like Akali and Poppy and Jax are extremely hard for mages to deal with. E.g., as Brand your cooldowns are too long to get two full rounds off before Akali has already killed you, at nearly any point of the game. Making it almost impossible to defend a point against her solo. So while I like Brand against most champions I do not like him against Akali. So calling him a "beast" is only true if they have no Akali. If they do, he is respawning too often to be a beast.
The prevalence of the fighter/assassin OP thing is much more real in solo queue. If you do premade 5's, this falls away fast - though you see a similar division in SR (Tryndamere OP, for example).

I think your assessment is correct - Jax, Poppy and Akali are the biggest offenders. Jax's double-dip becomes a guarentee on this map, Poppy has the lack of farm to keep her in check in SR, and Akali is able to rip people up piecemeal. Of these, I find Akali to be the least problematic.

This assessment is partially based on internal tests, but a lot of it on running some raw analysis of the capabilities, then testing those theories in both live-fire and controlled environments. Takeaways are, though, there are a couple visible outliers, but "only play fighters/assassins" is flat out incorrect and there's no real evidence to support it. That kind of overstated feedback is all I'm objecting to, while real discussions I think have a lot of value.


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Morello

Lead Designer

09-27-2011
19 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrepareToLoseKid View Post
@Morello :

I just played you in dominion 5v5(I was akali, you were leona iirc)

As you can tell our Janan became pretty much useless fairly quickly into the match. What can you say about the role support champs will have in dominion, if any? It seems almost like a waste of burst dps/cc slot after just 4 or 5 minutes
Janna beasted the Hell out of us. She single-handed defended against Talon/GP. I don't know what more you want


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Ladnil

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Member

09-27-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyphnx View Post
Why would you not include balance changes in the release? This is beyond sad. You can't play who you want and win.
You're plainly deluded if you think every champion is going to be equally viable on every game mode ever released for this or any other game.

The health of a game's balance is based on a lack of characters that are gamebreakingly too strong and an abundance of characters that are viable picks in competitive play. Having as few unviable choices as possible is best for usability, but it does not break a game if some characters are considered unusable. In fact, having supposedly unviable characters with unique characteristics opens up the possibility for surprise and creativity when a character thought to be weak is played very well. The bottom tier actually needs to be populated with sleeper characters for the game to be the best it can be.


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Lord Davros

Senior Member

09-27-2011

Akali is not as OP as people think, there are a lot of tools against her. Oracle Estract, Hextech Sweeper, The Lightbringer, Lee Sin...

But Poppy, Jax and Rammus are more difficult to counter.

Anyway, dont you think Morello that this game (Dominion and SR) needs 6 bans long time ago like in real tournaments?


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Vanisher1

Senior Member

09-27-2011

Hey morello , is there any intention to make dominion specific balance changes?

like when TT cames out we had a lot of problem with balancing , making some champions nerfed because of TT (mundo) and making them bad at SR.

There exist the posibility of making changes that affect dominion but not SR?