Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

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DJ Radix

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Senior Member

09-20-2011

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Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
Tryndamere is one of the few champions left in the game where having a specific summoner is all but required to deal with him at all, or else get ready to hand him quadrakills. And even then if he comes in at you with full health you are just prolonging the inevitable, you're not going to out damage a Tryndamere at close range and you aren't going to get away from him between the spin and the mocking shout.

Tryndamere's ult along with Karthus's easily is, and has always been, in the top 5 hated champions/champion ults in the game, and there's a reason for it. Of course, if you ask Trynd players or oneupsman, they'll say the reason is "lol ur bad l2p" but nevertheless, these are extremely frustrating mechanics to play against because in both cases they're much more almost no risk, high reward mechanisms, especially compared to their counters. Using exhaust on Tryndamere by no means guarantees survival or getting away.
I'm arguing that the push-button stun/taunt/fear is far more deadly than tryndamere's ult. In fact it defeats him when used properly--and we're already assuming that Tryndamere is using his abilities properly, so I think that's a fair assumption on my part.

You say "he's only countered by that." Maybe, maybe not, but we both agree it counters him. I argue that what counters him is more useful in a wider variety of situations--and easier to pull off, when it doesn't even require a skill shot.


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Duskofdead

Senior Member

09-20-2011

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Originally Posted by Echoing View Post
Actually, if you kill Karthus while he's trying to cast his ult, it'll go on cooldown without doing damage.

Good luck with that though.
Wow really?!


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DJ Radix

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09-20-2011

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Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
Wow really?!
Or if you stun him, taunt him, fear him... Anything that breaks a channeling.

That's why he always backs off away from the fight to use it. Or why he uses it after he dies and becomes untargetable.


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Duskofdead

Senior Member

09-20-2011

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Originally Posted by shaytalis View Post
I'm arguing that the push-button stun/taunt/fear is far more deadly than tryndamere's ult. In fact it defeats him when used properly--and we're already assuming that Tryndamere is using his abilities properly, so I think that's a fair assumption on my part.

You say "he's only countered by that." Maybe, maybe not, but we both agree it counters him. I argue that what counters him is more useful in a wider variety of situations--and easier to pull off, when it doesn't even require a skill shot.
I think a Taric stun resulting in a quadrakill is a 5 person team effort.

I think a Tryndamere ult resulting in a quadrakill can be just Tryndamere.

Sorry, but I don't think they're similar, and I certainly don't think normal stuns are worse than Trynd's ult.


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nbdyman

Senior Member

09-20-2011

Great read. very interesting for someone into game theory like myself.


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DJ Radix

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09-20-2011

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Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
I think a Taric stun resulting in a quadrakill is a 5 person team effort.

I think a Tryndamere ult resulting in a quadrakill can be just Tryndamere.

Sorry, but I don't think they're similar, and I certainly don't think normal stuns are worse than Trynd's ult.
Again you're assuming that:

1) Tryndamere does everything he's supposed to do.
2) Opposing team has no one with a stun/taunt/fear *or* does not do what they are supposed to do.

It's not a fair comparison. In that same game with me as Ashe and the enemy as Tryndamere:

Tryndamere was fed. He was carrying his team. He got a pentakill at one point in the game.

Yet we won. Because as Ashe, I was able to refocus how I used my Ult. I saved it just for him. Any team fight we got into, Tryndamere would charge in and start acting unstoppable. We focused him. He ulted. I ulted. He died. My stun countered his endless rage.

We were both doing well. We were both doing what we were supposed to do. He went Something like 22/7/12 that game, And I went something like 17/9/14. We were both carrying our teams and doing extremely well. But when push came to shove, once I started using my stun to neutralize him, it countered him. And that's a skill-shot stun. Taric's requires you to left-click.


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Duskofdead

Senior Member

09-21-2011

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Originally Posted by shaytalis View Post
Again you're assuming that:

1) Tryndamere does everything he's supposed to do.
2) Opposing team has no one with a stun/taunt/fear *or* does not do what they are supposed to do.

It's not a fair comparison.
I don't see what's unfair about the comparison whatsoever. To assume the situations are even equal (YOU assert that normal stuns are "worse" than Trynd hopping on you with his R cooldown ready) we have to assume champs like Taric are coordinating heavily with their team. You always have more manuevering room when someone with a one button stun comes at you, and you aren't absolutely required to have 1 specific summoner to even stand a chance of living long enough to try to react.

Quote:
Yet we won. Because as Ashe, I was able to refocus how I used my Ult. I saved it just for him. Any team fight we got into, Tryndamere would charge in and start acting unstoppable. We focused him. He ulted. I ulted. He died. My stun countered his endless rage.
Basically all this anecdote did was prove my point, it takes blowing basically all your stuns and cc's and probably exhausts to get Trynd out of the picture ASAP. Don't even tell me your team blows all its most important cooldowns to stop a Taric or a Sion.


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DJ Radix

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09-21-2011

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Originally Posted by Duskofdead View Post
I don't see what's unfair about the comparison whatsoever. To assume the situations are even equal (YOU assert that normal stuns are "worse" than Trynd hopping on you with his R cooldown ready) we have to assume champs like Taric are coordinating heavily with their team. You always have more manuevering room when someone with a one button stun comes at you, and you aren't absolutely required to have 1 specific summoner to even stand a chance of living long enough to try to react.



Basically all this anecdote did was prove my point, it takes blowing basically all your stuns and cc's and probably exhausts to get Trynd out of the picture ASAP. Don't even tell me your team blows all its most important cooldowns to stop a Taric or a Sion.
Um, the team doesn't have to blow "all of their stuns," we had to "blow" 1 per team fight. Using a single stun on a carry and killing them isn't "blowing" it, it's using it intelligently.

If you're saying that Taric can't 1 v 1 Tryndamere in the middle of an open field, you're probably right. But you're talking about Tyrndamere pressing R and getting pentakills with nothing the team can do about it. You can't get a pentakill without the entire team being present.

Rambo Tryndamere's pentakill is countered by a team with a single stun--assuming they both do what they should. You can't keep going back and forth between whether or not my team is present.


You also keep making this unfair comparison about the skill levels of the players. You're correct that a good Tryndamere could ace a bad team. On that point, you are right. And that's the reason he's frequently banned at low elo. But, in my opinion and based on my experience, you're wrong if you think a good team with a stun has the same issue.

So maybe Tryndamere is unbalanced for low elo. Yes. High elo, he's fine, in my opinion.

Stuns like Taric's, on the other hand, are powerful at low elo (what's not to like?), and *huge* at high elo--where teammates are coordinating effectively instead of trying to solo the opposing team. Even at low elo, Taric's stun is enough to save himself from, or even kill, a tower-diving tryn.


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DJ Radix

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09-21-2011

@Duskofdead

I do want to reiterate, I'm not saying "Tryndamere is perfectly balanced because a stun in a team fight can counter his ult." What I've been arguing is that unavoidable stuns/taunts/fears are more annoying / bad for the game than Tryndamere's ult.

The rationale:

Tryndamere's ult cleans up at low elo (uncoordinated team), but is countered at high elo (coordinated team) using a stun or other hard suppression.

By contrast, left-click stuns are effective at any elo, but highly effective at high elo.

As an example I commented that the stun was enough to save yourself from Tryndamere 1 v 1, or even kill him while he's tower-diving. As another example, at high elo, with a coordinated team, the same stun is enough to neutralize Tryndamere in a team fight and kill him.

In both of these examples I assume a skilled Tryndamere player. In the first example, I assume a skilled player with a stun. In the second example, I assume a skilled team with a stun.

We both gave examples where Tryndamere was able to get a pentakill versus an uncoordinated team.


Tryn is similar to where Eve was before her most recent nerfs. And that is why Tryn is banned at low elo very frequently.

Honestly, I don't know why so many Tryndameres are running without Cleanse. It's a great way to counter this hard cc that can deal with him.

Left-click hard CC just doesn't have the same situation, in my opinion. It seems to be strong at any level of play--only growing stronger the higher up you go. That is why it concerns me more than Tryndamere's ult.


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Duskofdead

Senior Member

09-21-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaytalis View Post
@Duskofdead

I do want to reiterate, I'm not saying "Tryndamere is perfectly balanced because a stun in a team fight can counter his ult." What I've been arguing is that unavoidable stuns/taunts/fears are more annoying / bad for the game than Tryndamere's ult.
And I disagree.

Quote:
The rationale:

Tryndamere's ult cleans up at low elo (uncoordinated team)
Which is invariably where it's used.

Quote:
but is countered at high elo (coordinated team) using a stun or other hard suppression.
An extremely bad balance yardstick like saying "it's okay for a champ to be OP if played really well because it's made up for by the fact that they suck if they played poorly." A balanced champ is a balanced champ, not a horrible champ in 95% of hands but an overpowered one in 5% of hands. See: old Anivia.

Quote:
By contrast, left-click stuns are effective at any elo, but highly effective at high elo.
But stuns exist both ways on both teams. When there's a Tryndamere on the other team you just have to take specific summoner ability (thereby forgoing others you might use or need) just to deal with him, on top of making sure you have sufficient stuns and cc to deal with him ulting. And even with all of that, it's somewhat unavoidable that he is going to get some dive kills in early game after level 6. It's pretty simple, go up to a squishy and dive. From a squishy's point of view until teamfight stage later in the game, there are almost no options for dealing with this other than to abandon tower. Certainly not the "way way more options" than dealing with a one target stun which you hyperbole'd earlier.

Quote:
As an example I commented that the stun was enough to save yourself from Tryndamere 1 v 1, or even kill him while he's tower-diving. As another example, at high elo, with a coordinated team, the same stun is enough to neutralize Tryndamere in a team fight and kill him.
Sure if we assume a bad Tryndamere. But in most cases if you don't stun him before his ult, you'll die. So just waiting for him to ult and then stunning him under the turret isn't something that will always work, especially at the lower levels for a squishy who is going to die in a couple of autoattacks if they don't stun him right away.

Quote:
In both of these examples I assume a skilled Tryndamere player.
No, you didn't. You assumed a Tryndamere who will be putting out so little damage that someone can just dance around and try to avoid him until he ults, and then stun him and run away. Or that the Tryndamere would be diving a non-squishy.

Quote:
Tryn is similar to where Eve was before her most recent nerfs. And that is why Tryn is banned at low elo very frequently.
Yes. Things that are easily countered in a high ELO 5v5 preset where everyone is on voicechat and coordinating can often be frustratingly, aggravatingly difficult to adequately counter in any other type of game, where you will, most often, be left to your own devices. My entire team isn't going to come down to my tower at level 6 to protect me "just in case" Tryndamere decides to dive when the minion line is pushed.

Quote:
Left-click hard CC just doesn't have the same situation, in my opinion. They seem to be strong at any level of play--only growing stronger the higher up you go. That is why it concerns me more than Tryndamere's ult.
And we disagree, stuns are prevalent enough in the game that you will have them on both sides. When a Tryndamere, much like an Eve, is in the game, the mechanic only functions one way. The other team has to take special measures to react to just this one champion. That does not happen with normal stuns.