Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns

First Riot Post
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Yoshiro

Senior Member

08-30-2011

I wan't a Succubus thats debuffs and has sleep but I guess it wouldn't work seeing how the majority of the community plays and what they value as important.

Morde is OP, no he really isnt...


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Spellsy

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Senior Member

08-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by lorylke View Post
Thanks for dodging my post ENTIRELY this time.

And if you check the abilities and the way the interaction happens, it's not a carbon copy, but the concept is fairly unique and happens to be extremely similar.

What's next, you gonna tell me Rumble was developed over 6 months from scratch in some guy's basement without any proof?

I'm surprised about your lack of professionalism, but I suppose I should've come to expect that from Riot employees :/. After all, Tryndamere(the person) is a lying hypocritical idiot and you lie on every single ad of yours with statements like "true successor of DotA" or "the next gen DotA" game.

But either way, thread is about your design philosophy, not about your morally questionable public representation, so let's please stick to that.
1st half (re: orianna vs wildman), if you understand orianna and how she PLAYS, she is nothing like this other person you linked. while they both share the pet chase and the double edged speed based on the pet location, the minor nuances create severely different gameplay.

for this wildman guy, the pet appears to only go to an enemy, or at your side, meaning the positioning of the dog is binary. while for orianna, the ball can be at several hundred different locations, from next to an enemy, to on a teammate. this difference between characters, while seeming minor, creates a huge different decision making process for the player! the wildman doesn't have to manage his pet's location almost at all, because there are so few places for the pet to be it adds very little depth to the mechanic and the use of his second ability, because he is either comboing it with his first ability, or not. while for orianna, the pet's positioning means much more, as not only does the positioning effect what she is going to do immediately next, but it also effects what she is going to do in 2-3 steps, because each of her abilities has individual complexities that are dependent on the ball's positioning! this is pretty clear if you have ever played orianna or if you have seen oriannas play, as the difference between good oriannas and great oriannas is the management of the ball, good oriannas will be disruptive by comboing her moves (which lane good damage), however, great oriannas will be able to bring great zone control and great utility, through the several nuances built into each ability's design.

That being said, is that wildman an actual hero in h o n ?? cause that design looks awful, full of forced synergy and shallow gameplay.


ok, now @ the second part of what you said (re: "professionalism")
werent those things that you say tryndamere said quotes from people who reviewed LoL? like pc gamer and such? lol. and why do you expect him to have a personal dialog with you? hes doing this in his free time, yet you feel ENTITLED to his response? you should take any response of his as a gift, almost nowhere else would you even have hope for a response.


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Teirdome

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Senior Member

08-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trueuniquename View Post
strong damage is NOT desirable -- if you drain someones life to 0 you feel kinda good, and they feel TERRIBLE -- so the anti-fun is exceeded by the fun. This is important because the goal of the game is for players to have fun, so designers should seek abilities that result in a net increase of fun in the game. Basic design theory, yes?

YES, lets play farmville!
I understand that this is an obvious troll comment, but it's still worth exploring briefly.

Draining mana and draining life have completely different consequences. Draining mana removes the most interactive tools (abilities) of the victim from the fight and only gives the player doing the draining the small satisfaction of knowing they removed somebody from the fight. Huge negative for the victim with a very small perk for the attacker. To replenish their mana, the victim must sacrifice a cooldown, sacrifice currency (mana pot), or return to base, further compounding the anti-fun.

Examining the negative consequences for the victim of a health drain death, there are multiple pieces in place to alleviate the anti-fun of death and much larger perks for the attacker. For the victim, the initial hit of falling to the attacker sucks probably worse than mana drain, but there are a number of tools that reduce the anti-fun. First, the victim knows exactly when they will be back in the fight thanks to a countdown timer in multiple places. Second, the victim can easily find out how they were killed by looking at the death summary, alleviating frustration seen in first person shooters where you get sniped from nowhere.

You are correct in that there is a delicate balance to strike with damage, and ironically this is most often seen in Annie Bot. If the victim feels that they could not fight back, as is often the case when Annie Bot blows away all the life of its victim in three quick casts, then the victim's anti-fun is greatly increased.

However, the fun for the attacker is much, much greater than in the mana burn case. First, their name is flashed in all it's glory upon the screen for all to see. Second, their kill is announced by some voiceless woman. Third, they are given a bounty in gold. All of these are vastly more fun than simply removing a portion of the victim's damage for an unknown length of time.

My one concern for Dominion with the player kill messages being reduced to only the picture on the side is that it does lower the attacker's fun a little bit. Perhaps the player names involved in the kill/death should be displayed underneath the pictures, or something else about the interaction such as damage/time.


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Spellsy

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Senior Member

08-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyuez View Post
Keep things dumbed down for newer players. Sounds pretty lame for competitives.
actually, keeping "burden of knowledge" to a minimum doesn't keep things "dumbed down". it keeps things accessible, however, accessibility and complexity arent mutually exclusive, you can have both.

I think leblanc shows this "accessible but complex" dynamic perfectly. when you see players pick up leblanc, they can still play her successfully. using just her double q combo and w/e minimally she can still work just fine for low skill levels. however, there is huge area for improvement here. if you've ever seen a good leblanc you can see how her mobility and disable combo'd with her single target burst allows for much more dynamic play than just straightforward run up to someone, q-r-w-ignite them, and get the kill or run away till you can do it again. also from seeing good leblancs you learn that while q-q-w is your most powerful upfront combo, combos such as w-e-q-q (getting the second q off before the second e proc) or q-w-e-e-q can be better for different situations!

things that fall under "burden of knowledge" are often bad gameplay structures, which add arbitrary complexity by adding miscellaneous details to abilities or champions to create the illusion of "deep gameplay"


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lorylke

Member

08-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spellsy View Post
1st half (re: orianna vs wildman), if you understand orianna and how she PLAYS, she is nothing like this other person you linked. while they both share the pet chase and the double edged speed based on the pet location, the minor nuances create severely different gameplay.

for this wildman guy, the pet appears to only go to an enemy, or at your side, meaning the positioning of the dog is binary. while for orianna, the ball can be at several hundred different locations, from next to an enemy, to on a teammate. this difference between characters, while seeming minor, creates a huge different decision making process for the player! the wildman doesn't have to manage his pet's location almost at all, because there are so few places for the pet to be it adds very little depth to the mechanic and the use of his second ability, because he is either comboing it with his first ability, or not. while for orianna, the pet's positioning means much more, as not only does the positioning effect what she is going to do immediately next, but it also effects what she is going to do in 2-3 steps, because each of her abilities has individual complexities that are dependent on the ball's positioning! this is pretty clear if you have ever played orianna or if you have seen oriannas play, as the difference between good oriannas and great oriannas is the management of the ball, good oriannas will be disruptive by comboing her moves (which lane good damage), however, great oriannas will be able to bring great zone control and great utility, through the several nuances built into each ability's design.

That being said, is that wildman an actual hero in h o n ?? cause that design looks awful, full of forced synergy and shallow gameplay.


ok, now @ the second part of what you said (re: "professionalism")
werent those things that you say tryndamere said quotes from people who reviewed LoL? like pc gamer and such? lol. and why do you expect him to have a personal dialog with you? hes doing this in his free time, yet you feel ENTITLED to his response? you should take any response of his as a gift, almost nowhere else would you even have hope for a response.
We're talking about stolen concept, not stolen hero entirely, for that refer to Rumble.

Tryndamere, in the past, said that the reason we're not getting any looks at new upcoming content or any idea of when it's coming (magma chamber, for example), because "the competition have shown their willingness to steal our ideas". He basically painted valve, s2 and every other company black just to make himself look like not a complete promise-breaking lying *******... Then he allows 2 old hero concepts (one of them being pretty much a full carbon print of original concept) stolen to his gain.


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Spellsy

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Senior Member

08-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by lorylke View Post
We're talking about stolen concept, not stolen hero entirely, for that refer to Rumble.

Tryndamere, in the past, said that the reason we're not getting any looks at new upcoming content or any idea of when it's coming (magma chamber, for example), because "the competition have shown their willingness to steal our ideas". He basically painted valve, s2 and every other company black just to make himself look like not a complete promise-breaking lying *******... Then he allows 2 old hero concepts (one of them being pretty much a full carbon print of original concept) stolen to his gain.
who is rumble stolen from?

and, @ the stealing thing, have you seen h o n's champion spotlights? or their monetizing strategy as of late? or... how they've "changed"? they have stolen almost every general feature changes (from LoL and from dota2).

oh and btw, the concept is in the execution and nuances..


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Leondre

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Senior Member

08-30-2011

So this is why every champion's skills can be found in some form or another in other champs.

wtb more unreliable skills, makes things interesting.


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Spellsy

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Senior Member

08-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leondre View Post
So this is why every champion's skills can be found in some form or another in other champs.
lol this viewpoint is so close-minded and short-sighted, if you try hard enough you can boil down almost anyone's skills to compare to another one's. but that doesnt mean almost anything.. just because skarner has a shield doesn't mean his play is anywhere similar to jarvans. what a champion kit should do is provide a unique playing experience. this experience is made by the combination of all of the skills and all of the intricacies of each kit. you could build hundreds of unique gameplay experiences with only 10 universal skill, as the combination of having nuke blink stun nuke is different than nuke slow nuke stun!


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ManyFs

Member

08-30-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spellsy View Post
lol this viewpoint is so close-minded and short-sighted, if you try hard enough you can boil down almost anyone's skills to compare to another one's. but that doesnt mean almost anything.. just because skarner has a shield doesn't mean his play is anywhere similar to jarvans. what a champion kit should do is provide a unique playing experience. this experience is made by the combination of all of the skills and all of the intricacies of each kit. you could build hundreds of unique gameplay experiences with only 10 universal skill, as the combination of having nuke blink stun nuke is different than nuke slow nuke stun!
I think the guy, and everyone who supports his opinon, are trying to say that the new champions are becoming watered down versions of other champions released. Sure, they may have different playstyles, different ability combination's, but nothing that really makes them stand out, or anything truly "unique".

Your example of Jarvan and Skarner is partially true, but the ability is used in almost the same way for both characters. Skarner can use his shield to escape because of the movement speed buff, Jarvan can use his to escape because of the AoE slow. Most of the time though, the most unique aspect of a champion comes from their passive or their ultimate. Those two things alone shouldn't be the main differentiating component, and sometimes don't really add up to all that much when comparing champions anyway.

More and more League players want unique, game changing abilities, clutch moves, and ways to feel amazing when you do pull off that great move. Janna is an exceptional example of this; she has an amazing kit that is diverse, fairly unique, and can be very game changing. Champions that have been released recently dont always have that spark.


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OsirusAnubis

Senior Member

08-30-2011

The use-pattern concept hurts creativity in my opinion