@Phreak Stop doing patch previews if you're going to lie

First Riot Post
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ForGoodMeasure

Senior Member

08-24-2011

Hmm, not that ELO is everything but...

Phreak: 1912 Solo 5v5 ELO, #716 (was rated #2 or #3 in the game at the end of beta)

Traithan: 1406 Solo 5v5 ELO, #33340


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Fresh Cookies

Senior Member

08-24-2011

The extra spears and armor/mr on Nidalee are nice, but it doesn't make up for the nerf to the heal. She feels much less substantial than she used to. The little bit of survivability on cougar doesn't offer enough protection to warrant jumping into a team fight instead of nuking with spears and the extra AP on swipe still doesn't help her damage much. Her late game usually devolved into poking with spears and nuke healing a team mate. Now it's just poking with spears and mopping up the runners, provided they're not building defensively. Spamming Q is not fun, guise.


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Guinsoo

Game Designer

08-24-2011
3 of 3 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenLen View Post
Okay. From the wiki it says armor mitigation is:
Damage Multiplier = 100 / (100 + Armor)
So when you have 100 armor, you have a 50% damage multiplier meaning 50% mitigation. 200 armor gives you a 33% damage multiplier, meaning 66% mitigation. 300 armor gives 75% mitigation. The point is that as your armor goes up, the less it helps.

Nidalee has 74 armor naturally at level 18 (unless its changed from what the wiki says and I'm mistaken). That gives a %57.47 damage multiplier, so around 43% mitigation. Add cougar forms 20 armor and you have 94 which gives you %51.54 damage multiplier, so you have around 49% mitigation. Your mitigation goes up by around 6%. If you buy any armor items or use armor runes or masteries, you get even less.

Lets compare that to 10% dodge. That provides 10% mitigation all the time. 10% dodge is mathematically better than 20 armor.
First, let me establish that when comparing armor and dodge, there is a point (depending on how much armor you have) where they are equal, and in either direction, one of the two stats will be better. Therefore, trying to use math to PROVE one or the other as better is simply impossible; it's a balancing point. You can say "In my opinion, the dodge is better" since Nidalee generally has at least 150 armor at all times but neither is factually better since the amount of armor you have varies throughout the game (unless you can make a case where it's always better, regardless of the value, which I will prove below is not the case).

Second, the amount of mitigation dodge provides is (dodge chance) * (damage not mitigated). You need to multiply by damage not mitigated, because otherwise you're ignoring the fact that armor would have mitigated part of the dodged amount anyway. TL;DR Adding 10% dodge does not mean you take 10% less physical damage than before. Unless you have 0 armor.

Also, since armor provides effective health (you have a pool of health to absorb blows), it ends up being a linear relationship between armor added and number of absorbable blows (multiply your health times your armor reduction; divide by raw damage taken; adding X armor means you will survive X% additional raw damage). Dodge is also a linear relationship (10% dodge means I live through 10% more blows). Thus, armor and dodge effectively scale at the same rate in terms of how many blows it will save you (once you account for the fact that Dodge "overkills").

We can solve to see where 10% dodge is equal in mitigation to 20 armor, and decide if we like that. In the following equations, armor is how much armor you already have existing.

With 10% dodge: average_physical_damage_taken = damage_input * ( 1 - (armor / (armor + 100) ) ) * (1 - 0.1)

With +20 armor: average_physical_damage_taken = damage_input * ( 1 - ( (armor + 20) / (armor + 120) ) )

Simplify a few pieces:
1-(a/(a+100)) = 100 / (100 + a)
1-((a+20)/(a+20+100))) = 100 / (120 + a)

If you put those two equations equal to each other you can see how much starting armor you need, for 10% dodge to be equal to 20 armor.

0.9*(100/(100+a))=(100/(120+a))
90*a + 10800 = 10000 + 100*a
10*a = 800
a = 80

Thus 20 armor is more valuable than 10% dodge at armor values less than 80. Once you have more than 80 armor, 10% dodge is more valuable. Of course this does not take into account Nimbleness nor the MR it gives. 20 MR is almost always more valuable than 20 Armor, but not by much. So if you were to say 150 armor were an acceptable breakeven point for dodge vs armor, I'd say that 20 armor/MR is ahead of 10% dodge by a fair margin. In general % damage reduction and dodge are great on champions you want to stack defenses on (like tanks) and flat armor and magic resist are great on champions you want to stack offense on (like DPS).

Having said all this, I think we're definitely open to giving Nidalee a little more armor and magic resist in cougar form. We've also experimented with giving her Spell Vamp and I rather liked that solution except the problem was it worked with Javelins and Bushwhack traps.


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Ikaros Tenshi

Senior Member

08-24-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
Except it will. It's a 15-25% cooldown and mana cost reduction. That's significant. Look at how Jarvan was nerfed over time. Less than 10% on a single ability and he stopped being "First Pick / Ban." You're being hyperbolic and it hurts your message.

That's entirely unfounded. You're just saying "IMO dodge is better than armor/mr." Well it's not. Math states otherwise, unless you build Tank Nidalee. The 1 second cooldown on Pounce is mitigated by CDR now. Certainly this will be a nerf at some points, but any Nidalee in any game will get Golem buff. You know what Golem buff gives you? 25% CDR.

It's about a 5% speed increase. This is multiplied out by his attack speed per level, etc. This means his auto-attacks are going to deal 5% more DPS, his cooldown reduction through his Q is 5% higher, and his mana regain via his passive is 5% more. No, this isn't earth-shattering. It still exists though. I never said it was earth-shattering. Taric heal also barely got nerfed. The buffs reflect that.

And the mana cost went down. You're just being selective with your arguments.

Items got worse for supports? Since when? So you're not going Deathcap Soraka? Good news! The best support item in the game, Shurelya's Reverie gives you health and cooldown reduction!

As for the AP ratio nerfs, I can explain that one, and it's three-fold.

1. Healing scales with mitigation. A 300 point heal on a level 1 Ashe is not significant. A 300 point heal on Alistar during his ultimate is. Silences are the same: Silencing the opposing Corki in lane might delay his Valkyrie by 2 seconds, and maybe it picks up a kill for you. That same Silence later on means Corki just got his face stomped by your team because he can't Flash either. Silencing the enemy Amumu who just initiated with Q suddenly can't ult and your team gets away. By simply existing, support champions automatically scale throughout the game. Obviously, champions like Annie do the same, but the point on healing is still relevant. Because of this, having heals scale off of AP well is really, really scary. As it stands, Soraka's Wish still out-scales Requiem in basically every facet. There's a reason Nidalee was crazy abusive last patch: ridiculous AP ratios on healing was some of it.

2. Because of #1, supports scale well with cooldown reduction. Almost every support item in the game (Reverie, Soul Shroud, even Randuin's or Deathfire Grasp (typo sorry)) has cooldown reduction on it. It's actually quite easy to itemize 40% CDR on a support. 40% uptime silence is really, really good. Champions like Annie don't want to itemize CDR because they want to spend money on AP. Thankfully, CDR on support items is really cheap. You can have 30% cooldown reduction for 1050 total gold with glyphs, 9/0/21, and CDR boots. You can cap out for 250 with a blue eixir. That seems pretty sweet to me.

3. Battle-healers that actually scale the same way get really ridiculous. Look back at Nidalee and how she was FP/FB against teams who knew how to play her. Certainly HSGG is a strong solo top player, but there's a reason specifically Nidalee was targeted in those situations, and in the interview with SK Ocelote at IEM, he regretted saying "Yeah, I think we can lane against it, we can let him have her." Scaling defense power for free while itemizing offense makes for really scary situations. See: AP Ezreal.

Additionally, you said "The only good supports are shield supports." Why are shield supports good? Because they prevent a large amount of damage over a short duration? What do silences do? What does a +120 armor buff do? Janna has one moderate shield and a two-minute cooldown ultimate that she doesn't even use for the heal most of the time yet she's considered one of the best four supports in the game. Know why? Because she does other stuff. Offensive stuff. it's really strong. Why is Alistar good? Certainly not because of Triumpant Roar.

I will completely agree the heal potential of supports went down. That was the goal and we admit it. But you're completely undervaluing a 10-second cooldown instant-cast Silence for zero cost, a 1.5 second cooldown -12 MR debuff. Get a Glacial Shroud, see what happens. It's amazing.

Honestly, I'm telling you how it is. I'm a player of this game. I'm actively involved and enjoy it every day. I played with and against the new Soraka in internal playtests. I actually got to make the decision, "Oh, Soraka's heal is on cooldown, I have the chance to aggress on her because I have a 10 second window where she doesn't have free armor." It wasn't "Oh, well she won't get healed right away" it was "Oh, he won't have armor." That's interesting decision making. I'm counting the durations and cooldowns of both my and my opponents' abilities to look for windows of attack. You can't tell me you had those last patch. You just didn't bother. That's fun.
Wow.. I didnt see stuff in that way.. Kinda feel like playing Soraka again.. Nice speech :P


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Prince Kassad

Senior Member

08-24-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
Having said all this, I think we're definitely open to giving Nidalee a little more armor and magic resist in cougar form. We've also experimented with giving her Spell Vamp and I rather liked that solution except the problem was it worked with Javelins and Bushwhack traps.
Please don't give her free spell vamp. It would be cool to play with, but some stuff just doesn't fit thematically with certain champions. Come up with more demons/vampires/werewolves if you want champions with spell vamp. I know it sounds lame, but it's just my opinion. :P


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ubernooberofdoom

Junior Member

08-24-2011

why is there no post from HSGG king of nidalee's


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NinetyNineTails

Member

08-24-2011

It always drives me crazy to see bad math on game forums. It's so a case of 'a little knowledge is dangerous'.

But it's not as bad as the threads about pseudorandom number generators are. Those always make my head explode with 'Someone is wrong on the Internet!!' rage.

So, yeah. Ginsoo. *brofist*


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Ujeye

Senior Member

08-24-2011

Guinsoo and Phreak both got upvoted for diplomacy. thanks for being awesome in the face of rude people who think they know more about the inner workings of the game than the company who makes the game.

Way to stay classy, Riot.


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Geomexis

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Senior Member

08-24-2011

One thing that Armor also has going for it is you reduce all physical damage, not just from auto-attacks. With 10% dodge you're still just avoiding auto-attacks, it doesn't actually reduce the damage you take when you do get hit and dodge also has no bearing on let's say Siphoning Strike or Crushing Blow since they can't be dodged and also deal physical damage.
So by that logic Armor has more uses since it reduces damage from some skills in addition to auto-attacks, plus even with 10% that doesn't mean you will actually dodge 1 attack out of 10, it just means your chances are 1/10 each time you roll for it (Which means it's possible to never dodge in an encounter while also being capable of dodging more than once per 10).


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Very Old Woman

Junior Member

08-24-2011

Oh geez. Just for some pixelated changes all this commotion is just too much :\