@Morello

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Morello

Lead Designer

08-10-2011
3 of 7 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by RHINO Mk II View Post
I suddenly respect Morello as designer a lot more for this post.
And considering our past discussions, I do imagine that was hard to type

I don't get to sit and write nearly often enough to explain things in detail.


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VMan7

Member

08-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
And considering our past discussions, I do imagine that was hard to type

I don't get to sit and write nearly often enough to explain things in detail.
Sooo... any way we could give Ryze mana scaling on E? Lategame his Q was nerfed 100 damage (assuming 5k mana full build), then compensated 10 damage several patches later. So a 90 damage every 1.4-2.4s net nerf.

Or any word on buffs?


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Bottleorum

Senior Member

08-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Hey, sorry for lack of discussion in that other post - with my time having been limited on the forums and that thing being quite large, I haven't had the time to sit and digest it.

I think the problem is the following, personally; we're comparing old Trynd to the remade Trynd, which creates a relative balance comparison, when the correct approach is an objective one. Allow me to go into this a bit;

Champions like Tryndamere will always get the sort of changes you see here - a combined nerf and buff effort to change the direction of the champion. The reason for this these champions are usually flawed in some major way, and too strong in others - simple buffs would send them through the roof, while nerfs to the abuse cases would kick them in the teeth. It's especially dangerous with a character like Trynd because he's a very prominent pubstomper (and while we balance for high level play first, we do take heavy consideration to our non-competitive play and try to make it a better experience too).

In reacting to feedback after doing a major champion update, we have to be measured. We were not with Ryze and Fiddlesticks, and then had to go back and nerf them more (despite cries of how much they were destroyed, including from high level players) and then have them be a bit out of control during that cycle. I've seen the mathcraft, I've seen the arguments, and I think we have to wait and see more. The buffs we did this patch were safe and necessary, but if more is needed remains to be seen. Tryndamere is a champion you don't want pushed over the top.

As far as the changes went, I feel if there's anything off, it's solvable by numbers. I'm happy that the mechanics changes we've added (they were pretty minor) have allowed for more effective and accurate numbers tweaking in the future. Since I'm not personally a high-level Tryndamere player, this feedback is helpful (and Classick, who is at a top level, helps analyze the objective balance for our team), but we need to be a bit conservative with buffs.

I wonder how much of this is the Ryze/Fiddles syndrome, where number changes look really bad on paper, or if changes in some item build don't get additional effectiveness. I'm not saying that's definitely the case, but typically, the feedback loop for remakes looks something like this;

* Did we overpower the champion?

** If yes, first ban every game.
** If no, it's trash tier.

There's no piece of the feedback loop where balanced lives, and I'd surmise it's because ramp-up is harder because there's an unlearning of old habits and a resetting of expectations. Tyrndamere may be, in fact, weaker than what we see, but I'd like to be certain of that before doing more buffs. I'd like to see if that adaptation of strategy, build, or tactics yields results after expectations have reset a little.

I'm convinced he's not far off, and there's nothing on his kit holding him back that isn't either the direct result of something like Exhaust picks or numbers. There may need to be changes, but not sweeping overhauls.
You made him a better jungler, a better laner, and a better champion (doesn't have to suicide mode to win anymore, can build like tanky dps).

I think people are just sad you can't play him like before, but all my experiences now are that he's just ridiculously good. Run around at full fury, tower dive people whenever you want really (alistar style baby, except I do ridiculous damage).

I think there just aren't as many tryndamere mains at high elo, or people willing to give him a good testing. I also think, regardless, he's got that Yi/Xin syndrome, where he's hit or miss. He's still susceptible to CC, he's still easy to nuke down in most builds. That hasn't changed, and most changes were quality of life changes overall. You're good to be cautious.

EDIT: Something I forgot to mention in here, the fact that when I look at tier lists (specifically, Elementz), and a LARGE majority of the champions are in tier 1 or 2, is telling of how well you guys are balancing. Except a few outliers (fiddle ult, gtfo, and your heimer/sivirs), your champions are all pretty overpowered (which is relative, therefore balanced).


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Morello

Lead Designer

08-10-2011
4 of 7 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by VMan7 View Post
Sooo... any way we could give Ryze mana scaling on E? Lategame his Q was nerfed 100 damage (assuming 5k mana full build), then compensated 10 damage several patches later.

Or any word on buffs?
Haven't really put this on the table lately, but could bring it up to the team. Seems reasonable.


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mokato

Senior Member

08-10-2011

Hey Morello man could you tell us Tyrnd players why we should pick him now and not be a complete burden to the team?
You seem to forget he is a melle carry that now requires allmost double the farm to do the same damage did before the rework and you didnt fix any of his problems and allso 1 CC + ignite is now a 99% chance to kill every time.


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Morello

Lead Designer

08-10-2011
5 of 7 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by mokato View Post
Hey Morello man could you tell us Tyrnd players why we should pick him now and not be a complete burden to the team?
Well, as a level 8 summoner, you should be able to pubstomp like crazy with Trynd. He's a great pick at your level of play, regardless of balance


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RHINO Mk II

Senior Member

08-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
And considering our past discussions, I do imagine that was hard to type

I don't get to sit and write nearly often enough to explain things in detail.
I'm not often up late enough to see your posts when you have free time... today I was having my hopes crushed as the second of only 7 Protoss in GSL Code S is knocked out of group stages and into the up and down matches. First MC and now Alicia : (


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VMan7

Member

08-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Haven't really put this on the table lately, but could bring it up to the team. Seems reasonable.
Also you never log on anymore so I can talk to you about balance Q_Q.

Although Ryze isn't in that bad of a spot, when you think about it, losing 90 damage over a period of 10s is a good 700ish damage missing if you're chaining spells. Other casters are better since they bring more utility to the table :x


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Azmodael

Senior Member

08-10-2011

Morello, Trynd rework is not a Ryze rework. Ryze got his whole playstyle changed, swapping itemization, skillorder and plystyle. Trynda plays the same, with nearly the same items but with lower numbers.

Ultimately Tryndamere is a poorly deisgned champion due to his ulty. No changes have been made there. Against a decent team you get exhausted and ignited. Due to his kit you are dead.

What I hoped to see was a ulty rework, making trynd less reliant on it to do anything in a teamfight. Atm Trynd is squishier then a ranged AD carry and he is melee. For Trynd teamfight presence is about 7-8 seconds with no inbuilt CC immunity. Old Trynd was all about those humongous crits in these few seconds, which made it so broken. You'd kill a typical Ashe that doesnt buy AR in 2-3 hits.

New Trynd aims to fix this, but the changes don't support it. You need to fight as to build Fury for the crit - if you use Q your damage plummets. And it heals for less - clearly you DO NOT want to use Q midfight. Not much different from old Trynd u'd say, but he could build his Q stacks a lot faster and would heal for more. He would also close the gap and run away more efficiently with E - a skill that used to be a one point wonder got murdered by these changes. The health cost reduction thing was good to go, but it hardly made a difference to your team presence.


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mokato

Senior Member

08-10-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morello View Post
Well, as a level 8 summoner, you should be able to pubstomp like crazy with Trynd. He's a great pick at your level of play, regardless of balance
Ahem this is my US account i'm a EU player and i talk on this forum to get anwsers that would be ignored over in europe?
If you want to call people out on the forums be a bit more classy ok?

EU acc = Deadbulky
He was allways a pubstomper like mord

I know this is a bit offtopick but why do you make some balance changes over low elo, i don't mean to sound cynical but you have a tendancy to gut champions and leave them in a sorry state ....no offence man.


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