2k ELO tryn: @Morello & @RIOT: why NERF tryn?

First Riot Post
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MortalBeing

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Senior Member

07-25-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by OJ191 View Post
I havn't mathed it in a while, but isn't it possible to reach the critD cap (300% i believe?) with runes + infinity edge? So couldn't you just use crit damage runes to reach that cap, and use the extra crit chance you get instead of using crit chance runes? NOT a tryndamere player but I was considering going full critD runes on vayne at one point for a troll build before the nerfs (tumble and ultimate bonus damage both get increased by crit unless they changed it since then, havn't played her in a while), so I mathed it back then but can't remember exactly what the results were.

Since you no longer need to be low health to get the increased crit chance, and there is quite a long window before degrading (10 seconds while out of combat). I think Jungle trynd will be even better with these changes, since he can easily build up full fury to get the increased crit chance in the jungle, then go out into a lane to gank still at full health with all that bonus crit chance.

Bear in mind this is all based on reading about tryndamere and these changes, and having a few friends who play him sometimes, I don't actually own him sooo feel free to **** on my arguments if you want.

Holy jesus.

With crit damage runes, I can hit 27% just with Reds and yellows, at 1

With brawlers that puts me at 42% chance to crit at full HP, more than crit chance runes could get me at level 1.

Doing more maths

These runes are really expensive though, ****.


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KaiZoku Ou Ni

Senior Member

07-25-2011

Honestly, I think Phreak is just plain stupid. Shows a champion spotlight about Wukong where he is consistently 3-4 levels ahead of the entire team, fights weak opponents like Ezreal and doesn't even go near Olaf,

Says the humongous nerfs to Kayle are actually buffs. Claims Galio is a top tier support now.


And now doesn't understand the nerf on Tryndamere.

The numbers speak for themselves. You moron.

Don't talk off your arse, my good sir. You clearly don't understand what you are saying, or you are that stupid. Or Maybe both.


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BadgerDrool

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Senior Member

07-25-2011

I think the neatest part is how this will change early Trynd itemization. Even late game itemization may be different.


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Guinsoo

Game Designer

07-25-2011
2 of 4 Riot Posts

At the end of Tryndamere's ult, it heals you to 5% (number? maybe 3%?), so if you time your Bloodlust right you will still survive.

A few other notes that may be applicable: for the laning phase, you max a Fury bar after 7 hits instead of 8, and you will gain Fury even if you fail to last hit a minion. Plus since Fury generates crit, your expected number of hits to max your bar goes down with every subsequent hit. For jungling, it's much more reliable and fast to max your bar, and I hope you guys give jungle Tryndamere a try. Additionally, you can now Mocking Shout while using Spinning Slash. I know people are bagging on the free Mocking Shout and Spinning Slash, but it makes a bigger difference than it seems; the health costs are somewhat low but it adds up quickly with any other damage taken. Combined with the increased Fury generation, laning is not so bad

The one thing we are a little concerned about is Spinning Slash. In earlier iterations it had a lower cooldown (11/10/9/8/7) which is why you see the lower damage number. We might need to adjust that slightly. We are going to monitor him closely, as a champion with such wild swings and extreme highs and lows is difficult to balance.

The last thing I want to talk about is the goal. I have heard several people in the thread say "Riot said they were going to buff Tryndamere." That was not necessarily the goal; the goal was to make Tryndamere more viable in high ELO. This is not the same as buffing Tryndamere, because Tryndamere already stomps all over lower ELO. If we want to make him viable at high ELO without making him worse for other players, we need to be careful about how we make him viable. He can only probably be viable as a solo top or a jungle, depending on which comp he's played in, so we focused our efforts there. In essence we wanted to trim up his usability and help him succeed at roles he can be viable at in high ELO.

It is hard to quantify some of the small tweaks that we put on him versus the obvious nerfs that you see (the numbers). Like similar champions we've reworked in the past, the rework looks worse on paper than it actually is. I'm not saying he's in a perfect spot, but I'm saying he's certainly better than the outcry on this thread suggests.


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h4ckerv2

Senior Member

07-25-2011

trynd was already pretty buff, thanks for the uber buff . mad <3


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KaiZoku Ou Ni

Senior Member

07-25-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
At the end of Tryndamere's ult, it heals you to 5% (number? maybe 3%?), so if you time your Bloodlust right you will still survive.

A few other notes that may be applicable: for the laning phase, you max a Fury bar after 7 hits instead of 8, and you will gain Fury even if you fail to last hit a minion. Plus since Fury generates crit, your expected number of hits to max your bar goes down with every subsequent hit. For jungling, it's much more reliable and fast to max your bar, and I hope you guys give jungle Tryndamere a try. Additionally, you can now Mocking Shout while using Spinning Slash. I know people are bagging on the free Mocking Shout and Spinning Slash, but it makes a bigger difference than it seems; the health costs are somewhat low but it adds up quickly with any other damage taken. Combined with the increased Fury generation, laning is not so bad

The one thing we are a little concerned about is Spinning Slash. In earlier iterations it had a lower cooldown (11/10/9/8/7) which is why you see the lower damage number. We might need to adjust that slightly. We are going to monitor him closely, as a champion with such wild swings and extreme highs and lows is difficult to balance.

The last thing I want to talk about is the goal. I have heard several people in the thread say "Riot said they were going to buff Tryndamere." That was not necessarily the goal; the goal was to make Tryndamere more viable in high ELO. This is not the same as buffing Tryndamere, because Tryndamere already stomps all over lower ELO. If we want to make him viable at high ELO without making him worse for other players, we need to be careful about how we make him viable. He can only probably be viable as a solo top or a jungle, depending on which comp he's played in, so we focused our efforts there. In essence we wanted to trim up his usability and help him succeed at roles he can be viable at in high ELO.
Unfortunately, some of your points are correct, some of them are blatantly wrong. Many champions are not used in high ELO because its very hard to get them right and there are other champions who can do that easier.

DOESN'T MEAN THEY NEED A REMAKE HURR DURR

Also, you CANNOT make him viable to high ELO by nerfing him my good sir.

Crit damage was only available in runes, Infinity edge, and Trynd's bloodlust if I am not mistaken. And you removed it. And you increased his cooldowns. And you nerfed his overall crit%.

This is a buff to any and every Trynd player who can't last hit. For all others, this is a major nerf.

A nerf will not make an already under used champion to be used more, get it?

This will only quench the thirst of the re-tarded 12 year olds who play this game and complain how OP Trynd is.

Again Guinsoo, let me say that for you, You cannot make a champion viable in high ELO by nerfing him. No disrespect intended.


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SkepticusMax

Junior Member

07-25-2011

I think Trynd is inherently unbalanced. After all, his right arm is much bigger than his left arm...


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HeroicEdge

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Senior Member

07-25-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
At the end of Tryndamere's ult, it heals you to 5% (number? maybe 3%?), so if you time your Bloodlust right you will still survive.

A few other notes that may be applicable: for the laning phase, you max a Fury bar after 7 hits instead of 8, and you will gain Fury even if you fail to last hit a minion. Plus since Fury generates crit, your expected number of hits to max your bar goes down with every subsequent hit. For jungling, it's much more reliable and fast to max your bar, and I hope you guys give jungle Tryndamere a try. Additionally, you can now Mocking Shout while using Spinning Slash. I know people are bagging on the free Mocking Shout and Spinning Slash, but it makes a bigger difference than it seems; the health costs are somewhat low but it adds up quickly with any other damage taken. Combined with the increased Fury generation, laning is not so bad

The one thing we are a little concerned about is Spinning Slash. In earlier iterations it had a lower cooldown (11/10/9/8/7) which is why you see the lower damage number. We might need to adjust that slightly. We are going to monitor him closely, as a champion with such wild swings and extreme highs and lows is difficult to balance.

The last thing I want to talk about is the goal. I have heard several people in the thread say "Riot said they were going to buff Tryndamere." That was not necessarily the goal; the goal was to make Tryndamere more viable in high ELO. This is not the same as buffing Tryndamere, because Tryndamere already stomps all over lower ELO. If we want to make him viable at high ELO without making him worse for other players, we need to be careful about how we make him viable. He can only probably be viable as a solo top or a jungle, depending on which comp he's played in, so we focused our efforts there. In essence we wanted to trim up his usability and help him succeed at roles he can be viable at in high ELO.

It is hard to quantify some of the small tweaks that we put on him versus the obvious nerfs that you see (the numbers). Like similar champions we've reworked in the past, the rework looks worse on paper than it actually is. I'm not saying he's in a perfect spot, but I'm saying he's certainly better than the outcry on this thread suggests.
Guinsoo....wtf is your avatar?


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Mãrtel

Senior Member

07-25-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinsoo View Post
At the end of Tryndamere's ult, it heals you to 5% (number? maybe 3%?), so if you time your Bloodlust right you will still survive.

A few other notes that may be applicable: for the laning phase, you max a Fury bar after 7 hits instead of 8, and you will gain Fury even if you fail to last hit a minion. Plus since Fury generates crit, your expected number of hits to max your bar goes down with every subsequent hit. For jungling, it's much more reliable and fast to max your bar, and I hope you guys give jungle Tryndamere a try. Additionally, you can now Mocking Shout while using Spinning Slash. I know people are bagging on the free Mocking Shout and Spinning Slash, but it makes a bigger difference than it seems; the health costs are somewhat low but it adds up quickly with any other damage taken. Combined with the increased Fury generation, laning is not so bad

The one thing we are a little concerned about is Spinning Slash. In earlier iterations it had a lower cooldown (11/10/9/8/7) which is why you see the lower damage number. We might need to adjust that slightly. We are going to monitor him closely, as a champion with such wild swings and extreme highs and lows is difficult to balance.

The last thing I want to talk about is the goal. I have heard several people in the thread say "Riot said they were going to buff Tryndamere." That was not necessarily the goal; the goal was to make Tryndamere more viable in high ELO. This is not the same as buffing Tryndamere, because Tryndamere already stomps all over lower ELO. If we want to make him viable at high ELO without making him worse for other players, we need to be careful about how we make him viable. He can only probably be viable as a solo top or a jungle, depending on which comp he's played in, so we focused our efforts there. In essence we wanted to trim up his usability and help him succeed at roles he can be viable at in high ELO.

It is hard to quantify some of the small tweaks that we put on him versus the obvious nerfs that you see (the numbers). Like similar champions we've reworked in the past, the rework looks worse on paper than it actually is. I'm not saying he's in a perfect spot, but I'm saying he's certainly better than the outcry on this thread suggests.
That's all fine and dandy, but why nerf the heal?


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juz501

Senior Member

07-25-2011

If you don't want to push a lane.. maybe jungle?