@Morello/Xypherous: Can we get an update on the stealth remake please?

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Enyalus

Senior Member

07-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3v3ryone View Post
Can you tell us how strong are new stealth champion in end game? because this new oracle ability won't help when stealth champions will have red buff or/and frozen mallet.

you will be able to see them 1-2 sec before they hit you, but when they hit you it's over, you wont escape, unless you have your own escape mechanism + flash. (i.e kassadin/tristana etc)
If its end game you shouldn't be alone for them to 1v1 surprise you. And if you can see them and it is 1v1, you should probably be able to kill them. If not, they're more fed/better than you?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Kluirl

Senior Member

07-13-2011

Hoping for more updates!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

NinjaGinge23

Senior Member

07-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
The current stealth system, as it stands right now, is far easier to execute successfully than fail at. Stealth, as a mechanic right now, is pretty much has the highest return for one of the lower skil-intensive mechanics. You hit a button, and now you are untargetable.

The reason why the stealth characters are "hard" to play is that this super easy lower-skill mechanic is tied to a character who is tremendously difficult or has tremendously lowered base statistics in order to balance out their skill to effectiveness curve.

This phenomenon creates a weird dichotomy where you don't get better at stealth characters by getting better at using the stealth mechanic. You get better at stealth characters by getting better at learning how to use artifically lowered statistics for balance.

One of the immediate benefits of the new stealth system was that it was hard to use effectively without practice. That's one of the major takeaways that I've really enjoyed. To get better at Evelynn and Twitch, you can *actually* learn to exploit the vision distances and harass abilities that you have. You need to learn how to leverage stealth/your position well to scout and understand how much power being invisible to minions and circling can give you when side-pushing, etc.

While I don't disagree that players *do* need to learn how to counter certain tactics, the skill cost to implement stealth currently is so much lower than the skill cost to counter stealth. Now, we've had to balance that skill cost by putting stealth on artificially weak characters, but the basics of the mechanics means that skill cost for countering the stealth mechanic will always be much much greater than executing stealth. This, in general, gives a terrible sense of where balance is at, because unless players are all above a certain skill threshold and the binary nature of the system starts to take its toll as before that skill threshold, stealth is amazing. Above that skill threshold, stealth is underpowered and frustrating.

I completely agree that these "gaps" need to exist for players to get better at the game, however, the gap here is *so* wide and the initial starting point for using stealth is *so* low, as a mechanic that it's not serving this purpose very well.
I'm going to agree with this, as something that had never occurred to me before. As someone who mains Twitch I really agree with how this rework is looking (regardless of how difficult it will make my life XD), but I am a little concerned about that sight range. I'll have to wait until the patch comes out to form a real opinion. I certainly hope that riot will be watching the affected gameplay and making that sight range larger or smaller depending on how it effects things. Thanks for the info.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

TurtleFrappe

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-13-2011

I can see how this can help with evelynn, but what about Twitch? Twitch is super squishy and having his stealth broken purely by distance at all times will take out his effectiveness during the laning phase. If they opposing player can see you when get however close to them then you would lack the ability to position that is so crucial to twitch gameplay right now. Twitche's strength in gameplay right now stem from being able to close quarter scout and set yourself up in an advantageous position, but without this positioning Twitch will get focused instantaneously and be useless when it comes to teamfights. I just fail to see how this automatic vision on stealth will balance out a champion who is so dependent on not having his position thrown by sight. Permastealth seems like a downgrade to twitch. He doesn't exactly have superior range, so his harassing abilities will be lowered and he will be too easy to focus and avoid in lane. I understand that it is supposed to make the stealth aspect more skill intensive, but I'm just unsure as to how this is going to affect the gameplay of one of the champions who is dependent on the current stealth setup.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ThaggleS

Senior Member

07-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Awesome info!
Xypherous, how about instead of the champion being able to see stealth within a shorter radius around them make it so they can see invisible champions 40 degrees to the left of their front and 40 degree to the right of their front, this allowing the stealth character to be able to enter fights from behind. Oracles allow for larger vision radius AND 360 degree vision of stealth.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mister Burkes

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-13-2011

@Xyphreous

Thanks for the update! Could you elaborate a little on how the stealth re-work might affect other champs like Akali, Shaco, and Teemo?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

NinjaGinge23

Senior Member

07-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by TurtleFrappe View Post
I can see how this can help with evelynn, but what about Twitch? Twitch is super squishy and having his stealth broken purely by distance at all times will take out his effectiveness during the laning phase. If they opposing player can see you when get however close to them then you would lack the ability to position that is so crucial to twitch gameplay right now. Twitche's strength in gameplay right now stem from being able to close quarter scout and set yourself up in an advantageous position, but without this positioning Twitch will get focused instantaneously and be useless when it comes to teamfights. I just fail to see how this automatic vision on stealth will balance out a champion who is so dependent on not having his position thrown by sight. Permastealth seems like a downgrade to twitch. He doesn't exactly have superior range, so his harassing abilities will be lowered and he will be too easy to focus and avoid in lane. I understand that it is supposed to make the stealth aspect more skill intensive, but I'm just unsure as to how this is going to affect the gameplay of one of the champions who is dependent on the current stealth setup.
Well besides Sivir (range 400) Twitch has the lowest range of all ranged carries so yeah that's gonna be a huge problem for him. and the really close quarters positioning is completely out the window. The point you raise though is the one I am most concerned about. His survivability with this adjustment drops as far as could be. I think His Q should give him the old stealth, but only for a few seconds, heck as low as 2 or 3 seconds if need be. If his Q gives him the old stealth for a few seconds with a big cooldown and some passive it will eliminate the ability of players to abuse it but will give him occassional chance to juke out of sight range. I think that in addition to this rework would leave Twitch really balanced while eliminating a lot of the initial issues and maintaining his overall feel.

This was just my initial thought to his survivability loss, what does everyone else think?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Datavore

Senior Member

07-13-2011

Well, I dunno if you're still reading this, but THANK YOU.

We've had an awful lot of vagueness from Rioterz lately. I'm really, really happy to get some straight answers from people.

Thank you so much, Xypherous and Shurelia, for taking the time to talk to us about this. I'm really looking forward to this remake, whenever it's implemented. It should make my Twitch much more interesting.

One small request, though: Keep Twitch insane. He's supposed to be totally, unredeemably crazy. That laugh, when he pops his ult or comes out of stealth, is what makes me love the little rat. Please let him keep that


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mizory

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaGinge23 View Post
Well besides Sivir (range 400) Twitch has the lowest range of all ranged carries so yeah that's gonna be a huge problem for him. and the really close quarters positioning is completely out the window. The point you raise though is the one I am most concerned about. His survivability with this adjustment drops as far as could be. I think His Q should give him the old stealth, but only for a few seconds, heck as low as 2 or 3 seconds if need be. If his Q gives him the old stealth for a few seconds with a big cooldown and some passive it will eliminate the ability of players to abuse it but will give him occassional chance to juke out of sight range. I think that in addition to this rework would leave Twitch really balanced while eliminating a lot of the initial issues and maintaining his overall feel.

This was just my initial thought to his survivability loss, what does everyone else think?
by making his stealth 2-3 seconds it would make him 1000000x worse than giving him this rework. i play twitch 90% if the games i play. This stealth reowkr scares the **** out of me for several reasons. Positioning. If you take away the ability to stalk the enemy heroes and scout safely twitch is useless. He needs to get close! he has **** range and he needs to be safe from stupid things because of how squishy he is. He right now has been nerfed to hell with his ult and things like that. Twitch is my favorite hero and I think this might be the worse thing you can possibly do to twitch or it can help him alot. i guess we will see?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

NinjaGinge23

Senior Member

07-13-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizory View Post
by making his stealth 2-3 seconds it would make him 1000000x worse than giving him this rework. i play twitch 90% if the games i play. This stealth reowkr scares the **** out of me for several reasons. Positioning. If you take away the ability to stalk the enemy heroes and scout safely twitch is useless. He needs to get close! he has **** range and he needs to be safe from stupid things because of how squishy he is. He right now has been nerfed to hell with his ult and things like that. Twitch is my favorite hero and I think this might be the worse thing you can possibly do to twitch or it can help him alot. i guess we will see?
No I'm saying that ability on top of the rework already planned