@Morello/Xypherous: Can we get an update on the stealth remake please?

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THE LION KlNG

Senior Member

07-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
Hm. Okay, well, I suppose it's been a while since I've given an update so I'll chime in on this a little:

Following up from last time, the general problem(s) with long term stealth was:

1. There was no way for the opponents to get an inkling of how clever the stealth player was being, and thus there was no good way to get a sense of how that player operates.
2. Stealth is claustrophobic in the way that it makes you play.
3. Stealth gives very powerful scouting information while simultaneously hiding that information from your opponent.

We tried some iterations past the first few tests, with Paranoia, alternate resource bars, footprints, phasing and mark systems but in the end, we settled on the current system because it was the simplest solution for long-term stealth. In short: "Everyone has reduced Oracles, but Evelynn and Twitch are perma-stealthed."

Some Partial Stealth Details

Disclaimer: I fully understand this destroys a *lot* of the current stealth gameplay changes. Unfortunately, through lots of iteration, I was unable to capture the feeling of pure invisibility while in stealth while having fun gameplay. In the end, I decided to opt for a very simple system that was highly understandable over some more fiddling mechanics.

1. Evelynn and Twitch are permanently stealthed when they rank their level one stealth abilities. However, Evelynn and Twitch can be seen when they are within X units of an enemy champion (Slightly under vision range), or when they are within a true sight radius.

If they attack, they are revealed briefly for 2 seconds before going back into stealth.

This 'X' is being adjusted for feel between the two champions. 'X' is smaller than champion vision radius, so you can "stalk" an opposing champion, but it will be farther away.

2. Evelynn and Twitch have a "sight gem" above opponent's, telling them when the enemy can see them or not and whether they are "safe" (green sight gem), "warning - you are close to being seen, but still unseen" (yellow sight gem) or "being seen" (red sight gem.)

Results

Long Term Stealth, in this case, has been removed as a primary initiation mechanic but allows Eve and Twitch to cross minion vision and regular sight bubbles with impunity and sneak into brush patches by circle/stalk their opponents. Their opponents can likewise spot-check areas with their own reveal radius and create zones were stealth characters "probably aren't, otherwise they'd be seen."

The sight gem allows the Eve/Twitch player to take much of the guesswork out of figuring out when they were being seen or revealed and allows them to put more of their thoughts on clever positioning and sneaking around their opponents, especially for lane ganks.

This also lets us make them more combat oriented characters that don't immediately blow up on start. In general, this stealth has proven to be very difficult to use but allows characters to have some bluff gameplay and interesting circle/stalk gameplay in testing. Your characters can still scout, but at a highly diminished effectiveness (due to the increased range.)

In team fights, stealth proved to be less effective than before, so the character's combat viabilities are being looked at through reworks/remakes.

What is blocking us on releasing this:

1. There's a pretty big problem with the concept known as Oracle-Sweeping. We'd want to replace Oracle's elixir with someone that doesn't cause such weird gameplay but as to what would be a *good* replacement is a little up in the air.

2. General particle/kit rebalancing work - We need to heavily redo Evelynn and Twitch's kits and that comes different visuals and graphical effects.

What I am testing right now - Additionally

Sight wards as being partial motion sensors - Sight wards signalling when a hostile is moving nearby?
"Robot Chicken" scout drone
"Wriggles" for supports?

I probably shouldn't do this but as compensation, some sneaks..

Evelynn can have her stun back, because now you have advanced warning of her when she steps in. She might need a short-step-stun in order to successfully initiate. Testing required. Twitch has proven to be a slightly harder problem in internal testing.

As an aside: Hate spike is now awesome (for me, at least). Evelynn now has Champion prioritizing Lurker Spines. This makes her lane less bad.

As usual, feel free to ask questions for a little bit as I stick around. I don't know all the details of the full remake (as Live better understands that new environment). Sorry for the delay, but with Orianna/Champion pipeline and such, this has been somewhat of a lower priority for me.
I feel that oracles should have it's price reduced so it will still be appealing to people looking for wards, now that it no longer helps with champs


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Aurori

Member

07-12-2011

@Shurelia/@Xypherous ( dang your name is hard to spell xD )

By, once upon a time, making a thread concerning Shaco, I had Guinsoo replying about some certain changes and bug fixes are being planned for the certain champion.

I do understand that the changes being made for long-term stealth does not affect Shaco, but what I am wondering is whether you could update us about Shacos current position in your "to fix list".

Thanks in advance.


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ZenithOfChaos

Senior Member

07-12-2011

Is the sight given by a champion of Evelynn/Twitch local or global with regard to the mini-map and such?


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Doctor Tam

Senior Member

07-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurelia View Post
Hi guys!

I've been working on the Eve and Twitch remakes that coincide with the stealth remake. I'll try to post details soon and get some community feedback on it.
Xyph + Shurelia = Riot Dream Team

I'm sure it will all work out in the end, even if it gets called out like crazy when you release it.


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SonicTheHedgedawg

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Senior Member

07-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurelia View Post
The stealth remake only applies to strategic stealth spells. Ones that have long durations.

since you deal with the champion remakes, shurelia, how are you going to deal with twitch's "Q" ?

In general, the way twitch's kit works is fine. It rewards attack speed by giving you more stacks of his true-damage passive the more attacks you can get in. And with more stacks comes more effective slows and nukes from debilitating poison and expunge respectively.

Twitch normally didn't itemize a WHOLE lot of attack speed though because he got so much with his invis (the attack speed buff lasted longer the closer twitch's stealth timer came to running out)

So I guess my question is: how are you going to reconcile the fact that twitch's AS steroid (which he desparately needs) doesn't really mechanically work anymore due to the stealth changes while developing a solution that maintains his "flavour?"

(twitch has never really been a champion who relies on knowing when to cast his spells . . . he's all about positioning. so, while a more active "Q" may be cool, it could throw off his flavour completely)
(Also, just nerfing the AS bonus but making it constant doesn't seem overly helpful since twitch tended to utilize that spell for temporary BIG boosts to AS.)


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Poor Frisco

Member

07-12-2011

Thanks for the update!


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Shurelia

Associate Game Designer

07-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagmolada View Post
How will 2 perma stealth interact? Will the gem singal that the other is close and when in range just reveal each other? or will 2 twitches be exempt from revealing each other?
You only see the gems if you can see the other person. So twitch would be able to see the other twitch if you were in range. It applies directly to who can see you or not.

Example: Twitch A is in brush. Twitch B approaches Twitch A. Twitch A seems a gem over Twitch B, but Twitch B cannot see Twitch A and therefore cannot see a sight gem.


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Zezaru

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Senior Member

07-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
It will not initially. Only long term stealth abilities will be changed.

The others will probably be reworded as "invisiblity" to distinct the two. Short term tactical stealths are in a much better place currently.

However, items that reveal stealth may be broadened a tad and Oracles may be on the block for being removed, so that will tangentially affect him.
So this won't be affecting Akali/Teemo/Shaco/Vayne either?


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ShrikeTheAvatar

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Senior Member

07-12-2011

Why is is that when I read Morello's posts I fear for the future of the game, and yet when I read Xypherous' posts, I am calmed and reassured?


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Ein

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Senior Recruiter

07-12-2011

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous View Post
The marker appears on top of *enemy* champions. Unfortunately, this diminishes Evelynn's capacity to brush check.

I believe we're testing Evelynn with a utility spell that will enable her to brush check at a distance. (Similar to how Anivia's ice wall can be used to brush check)



1. I like twitch's poison.
2. Yes.
Can twitches poison actually do some damage other than having to use expunge to get some damage out of it?. Kind of like teemos poison is what i'm thinking.