The Xhai Meki Scroll: A Shen Guide

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Viral

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Senior Member

03-24-2010

But what is the mastery page?


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Tsumerius

Junior Member

03-24-2010

Good guide overall.

Id have liked to explore more itemization with him, and better justifications or more alternatives for what was suggested, but its still very solid.

I guess some item choices are so standard to tank players and reflective of ever-changing conditions in the fighting that we sometimes overlook stating the obvious. The main thing that pops up there is boots. If you are absolutely raping with your team, Sorcs can make your Ki Strike hit harder, though I'd never take them over the staples of Swiftness/Mercs/Tabi on any tank. Well...except the few times I've got away with it on Amumu and Cho because of poor matchmaking.

Other then that I saw the mentioning of Effective Health, which is always misleading. No matter what Leaguecraft's builder tells us, the straight numbers are always a crock. Thats pretty much our EH against a minion. I say that not to strike against the guide or author, but to strike against those whom may misinterpret raw data. Basically, the reason I mention it is for the fact that guides are meant for those that need help with the concepts, so I always like to see a bit more explaining when it comes to a particular itemization or when I see a lack of options. There's no such thing as a cookie cutter for any build, but tanks often have harder decisions in general since playing them requires foresight and an ability to itemize against your opponent's characters, skills, damage type, and even their items. The same is true for every role really, but I hope you understand what I am trying to convey. I just believe to really help those people that you are trying to help, you have to spend a little more effort in the details to help them get it. People are proud and arrogant. They won't admit to others (or themselves) that they are ignorant. And they won't ask questions for fear of being perceived as stupid.

Lastly I'd like to say that your writing itself was beautiful. I loved the tone and theme of the guide. Very appealing and well done. Hope to see more from you in the same vein when the other ninjas are released (if they do come).


Now onto some alternate item suggestions that I like on him.

I think I prattled on about the boots earlier, so there is that. Leviathan, I love on tanks (hell on all) when its feasible in a build or with the momentum of a game. If the momentum is against your team, obviously it would be an overly expensive ruby crystal to have take up space. Players should be able to tell toward the end of early game whether or not its justifiable. But sometimes things just don't work out period, so don't be afraid to send it down the river in favor of something that gives a better benefit to your performance or your teams instead.

I love Aegis of the Legion. The earlier the better, and I say that mainly because it is so amazing for early laneing and tower pushing. People often seem to neglect that it boosts your minions as well as your fellow champions. Making it harder for your enemy to kill your minions, and easier for your minions to kill them and mulch towers? Mmmm. It's one of my personal favorites on Allistar when pubbing. Honestly I haven't got to test it out on Shen much yet, but his ability to teleport to a tower with his ult and help an ally (and any accompanying creeps) mulch the tower that much faster is highly useful. Alternatively it can be used to protect an ally that miss mulching a tower. You can juggle tower aggro using Shen's bubble as a buffer to squeeze out more damage on that push. It may not always be the best use of his ult, and its up to the individual player to wager.


Ugh, I had some more comments and discussing to do with you, mostly because I really enjoyed reading your guide...but I'm being paged for some matches. Like some others, I've found Rylai's nice on him for snaring enemies for allies (more so than frozen mallet's snare really). For anyone considering it, I have tried a fully AP Shen, and it was not effective. You just don't really contribute as much as you would as a straight tank, so I don't recommend it. It's possible, but I don't consider it viable for my personal tastes.

I had some thoughts on Frozen Heart vs Spirt Visage as well, I'm sure you can piece together pros and cons of that. I don't really like CDR on him that much, because I find his energy pool already somewhat restrictive in fights. If he had a traditional pool it would be a different story. I'll toy around and see if I can find a sweet spot, or adjust my skill usage to actually make better use of CDR.

I need to go, but I'll revisit this thread tomorrow and hopefully talk some with you. Before I go, if I said anything that sounded condescending it wasn't meant that way, I just want to give you some feedback and discussion. Enjoyed guide .


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Jonas Sterling

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Senior Member

03-25-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumerius View Post
Good guide overall.

Id have liked to explore more itemization with him, and better justifications or more alternatives for what was suggested, but its still very solid.

I guess some item choices are so standard to tank players and reflective of ever-changing conditions in the fighting that we sometimes overlook stating the obvious. The main thing that pops up there is boots. If you are absolutely raping with your team, Sorcs can make your Ki Strike hit harder, though I'd never take them over the staples of Swiftness/Mercs/Tabi on any tank. Well...except the few times I've got away with it on Amumu and Cho because of poor matchmaking.

Other then that I saw the mentioning of Effective Health, which is always misleading. No matter what Leaguecraft's builder tells us, the straight numbers are always a crock. Thats pretty much our EH against a minion. I say that not to strike against the guide or author, but to strike against those whom may misinterpret raw data. Basically, the reason I mention it is for the fact that guides are meant for those that need help with the concepts, so I always like to see a bit more explaining when it comes to a particular itemization or when I see a lack of options. There's no such thing as a cookie cutter for any build, but tanks often have harder decisions in general since playing them requires foresight and an ability to itemize against your opponent's characters, skills, damage type, and even their items. The same is true for every role really, but I hope you understand what I am trying to convey. I just believe to really help those people that you are trying to help, you have to spend a little more effort in the details to help them get it. People are proud and arrogant. They won't admit to others (or themselves) that they are ignorant. And they won't ask questions for fear of being perceived as stupid.

Lastly I'd like to say that your writing itself was beautiful. I loved the tone and theme of the guide. Very appealing and well done. Hope to see more from you in the same vein when the other ninjas are released (if they do come).


Now onto some alternate item suggestions that I like on him.

I think I prattled on about the boots earlier, so there is that. Leviathan, I love on tanks (hell on all) when its feasible in a build or with the momentum of a game. If the momentum is against your team, obviously it would be an overly expensive ruby crystal to have take up space. Players should be able to tell toward the end of early game whether or not its justifiable. But sometimes things just don't work out period, so don't be afraid to send it down the river in favor of something that gives a better benefit to your performance or your teams instead.

I love Aegis of the Legion. The earlier the better, and I say that mainly because it is so amazing for early laneing and tower pushing. People often seem to neglect that it boosts your minions as well as your fellow champions. Making it harder for your enemy to kill your minions, and easier for your minions to kill them and mulch towers? Mmmm. It's one of my personal favorites on Allistar when pubbing. Honestly I haven't got to test it out on Shen much yet, but his ability to teleport to a tower with his ult and help an ally (and any accompanying creeps) mulch the tower that much faster is highly useful. Alternatively it can be used to protect an ally that miss mulching a tower. You can juggle tower aggro using Shen's bubble as a buffer to squeeze out more damage on that push. It may not always be the best use of his ult, and its up to the individual player to wager.


Ugh, I had some more comments and discussing to do with you, mostly because I really enjoyed reading your guide...but I'm being paged for some matches. Like some others, I've found Rylai's nice on him for snaring enemies for allies (more so than frozen mallet's snare really). For anyone considering it, I have tried a fully AP Shen, and it was not effective. You just don't really contribute as much as you would as a straight tank, so I don't recommend it. It's possible, but I don't consider it viable for my personal tastes.

I had some thoughts on Frozen Heart vs Spirt Visage as well, I'm sure you can piece together pros and cons of that. I don't really like CDR on him that much, because I find his energy pool already somewhat restrictive in fights. If he had a traditional pool it would be a different story. I'll toy around and see if I can find a sweet spot, or adjust my skill usage to actually make better use of CDR.

I need to go, but I'll revisit this thread tomorrow and hopefully talk some with you. Before I go, if I said anything that sounded condescending it wasn't meant that way, I just want to give you some feedback and discussion. Enjoyed guide .
Thank you for the words of praise, and for adding this much to the guide; going to staple this to the front page in a link, it's definately worth reading in unison with it.


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whalerfish

Junior Member

03-29-2010

nice really like this tested it out snd went 8 and 3 then went 15 and 5


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Moonkin

Junior Member

03-29-2010

Hey, I find your guide interesting, and useful in many ways, however I must agree with Tsumerius on that CDR is not as useful for Shen (is it me or are you insinuating CDR improves energy regen, is that so?!? in such case yes, it would be very useful). Here is my following basic build for Shen, which has proven itself very, very useful.

1) Doran's Shield + Potion:
----Yes, I know we do not need the bonus hp regen, but the armor and potion does help. Must say, I usually get FB early game (Mid ELO)

2) Tabi/Merc: This depending on group composition (Although Tabi makes you dodge, which decreases your Ki Strke cd reduction, I am willing to sacrifice bonus damage for survibability)

3) Aegis:
----I just go straight for aegis unless the match is extremely one-sided, in which case I go for leviathan. The order in which I purchase the parts for Aegis depends on enemy team.

4) Sunfire Cape x4: Just start stacking Sunfires, and sell Doran's when you reach your 4th.

--------------------------------------------------

I also want to note this is just a standard build, I modify my build in EXTREME situations. Most common would be large ammounts of CC: Veil, ALL AP: More MR, or ALL Melee: Thronsmail (and this even depends on what melees they are)

Spells: I use flash and improved ignite.

Improved ignite: lets me get FB, it usually takes 2-3 hits, Qx2, and improved ignite to kill someone, even without support of friendly team memebers. This however is obviously countered by a heal, or a potion, but I have found that mid ELO, most players dont pop their potions while being surprised.

Flash: As you may have noticed I do not have any slowing items, flash + taunt allows me to slow oponents long enough to kill them, especially if I have some teamate helping me, and lets face it, Shen is all about team co-ordination.


Sidenote: I just want to note that Shen is AWSOME , he has a save, a taunt, and an indirect heal. I consider Shen to be the ultimate tank, only wish his taunt wasn't bugged, it doesnt work at times, I believe when 2 oponents are TOO close to each other, it bugs, atleast for me. And yes, there is nothing like telesaving a Nuker, taunting, and having the nuker preform a double kill while enemies are taunted


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Gyurma

Senior Member

04-12-2010

I've yet to try this guide mainly because i have my own way that seems to work well, and also I mainly play on twisted treeline, which in my opinion warrants a different style, even so this guide is far better than those who rush warmog's (i just love owning other shens that that the same hp as me but no armor/mr and sometimes even lack boots). Anyways I've been playing him for quite some time (again mostly on TT), and my build is as follows:

(side-note: im only summoner level 18, and yet to buy any runes because I'm saving for the tier 3's)

For masteries I just put stuff in defensive, for summoner spells, I usually run with ignite+ghost, or flash depending on my team setup

As for the skill order I go with 1 level in vorpal first because the taunt usually won't matter too much on that first team battle/gank, then i max vorpal, and dash, with putting points into ult whenever I can, I've yet to go with feint instead of vorpal because the damage is awesome and it helps a lot when I'm creeping/jungling, since Shen can't really farm well (I can solo lizard very fast with high leveled vorpal, and solo dragon quite early if im not too far behind in items), I guess feint would be a lot more useful on SR, especially against a Zilean, again this is what I usually do, it's not set in stone, but I always feel weak if I don't max vorpal first

As for items, and again this is what I do most of the time, I start with a ruby crystal, usually turn it into a leviathan, then boots, often ninja tabi, but could go for other stuff depending on what I need, then an aegis, warden's mail, then phage, frozen mallet, then sunfire, picking up an elixir when I feel like it
Games on TT usually don't last longer than my phage, it happened like twice only, so that's just what I did then. EDIT: Yes this build lacks MR but I've yet to face caster heavy teams on TT, and if there's just one this will give me enough to get through his/her damage.

Now of course I'm not a pro player, and I honestly don't like this build that much, because of leviathan, but I don't know what other early hp item I could get that wouldn't delay my aegis much and still would get me enough hp.

As for playstyle well I go around ganking (ki strike+leveled vorpal can put out some insanse damage), always saving enough energy for dash, and close enough for stand united, get some creeps here and then, if my teammates are competent enough I can quickly kill dragon if I'm already at my warden's without losing much hp, and whenever I'm low on hp I try to heal some with vorpal.

I'ts not perfect but it's working so far, tho any suggestions are welcome, and if anyone has any tips what I could replace leviathan with without gimping myself too much, I'd like to hear it.


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Joppanator

Member

04-19-2010

all of the guides for shen say the same thing (shen is a tank) which is nice and all but you guys are all the same with the exception of one or two items. shen as a tank is very good but i would like to see a guide that plays him differently. maybe one as a fighter as i does say in his description he can be built as. i'm guessing crit strike a lot rather than dps because his ki strike has a time instead of a chance (like 25% or something). i understand you and those others who posted guides would be opposed but i'm asking for those bright minds to come up with another way. i'm getting tired of playing shen as a tank though it works nicely. it doesn't net kills like i would want it too. also it would be nice to tell people that don't play shen that if they're about to die and are running away and see the bubble of your ult to keep running not stop and get us killed too.


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Joppanator

Member

04-19-2010

if you guys are looking for health why don't you just get another warmog's armor since it's not UNIQUE and there fore should stack with itself?

leviathan is only good with 20 stacks which means 10 assists or kills without dieing. and then it makes you take 15% less damage +640 health +180 health = 820. then you have to worry about dieing and losing 1/3 of the stacks which is 6 stacks at 20 which makes you lose 192 health. i understand it's not a whole lot but you are losing out on an investment.

warmog's armor gives +1220 health and health regen. this is permanent and again it should stack with itself so x2 on those. 2440 health.

comparing the two at full strength 1220 - 820 = 400 extra health. now the 15% less damage 400 / 1220 = 32% extra damage that you can take with warmog's. again warmog's gives health regen. and leviathan does not.

again this is a question so if you guys could clear this up it would be nice.


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Firu

Senior Member

04-20-2010

My main item build is a similar one to most:
- Doran's Shield
- Boots (Merc or Tabi depending on match)
- Leviathan's
- Sunfire x2
- Guardian Angel (because often at late game, one death can lose a match with its 60+ second respawn, and it preserves stacks)


But below, is my WTF AP build
- Red Crystal
- Boots (Merc or Tread)
- Finish Levi
- Rylai's
- Z-Ring
- Other AP items of preference.

That goal of the WTF AP build is really just to make your ult insane, and to boost the heal of your vorpal. It shines when your team's composition is made up of strong Physical DPS and/or has another tank-like hero.


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Nihil Sine Nefas

Senior Member

04-20-2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joppanator View Post
if you guys are looking for health why don't you just get another warmog's armor since it's not UNIQUE and there fore should stack with itself?

leviathan is only good with 20 stacks which means 10 assists or kills without dieing. and then it makes you take 15% less damage +640 health +180 health = 820. then you have to worry about dieing and losing 1/3 of the stacks which is 6 stacks at 20 which makes you lose 192 health. i understand it's not a whole lot but you are losing out on an investment.

warmog's armor gives +1220 health and health regen. this is permanent and again it should stack with itself so x2 on those. 2440 health.

comparing the two at full strength 1220 - 820 = 400 extra health. now the 15% less damage 400 / 1220 = 32% extra damage that you can take with warmog's. again warmog's gives health regen. and leviathan does not.

again this is a question so if you guys could clear this up it would be nice.
Lol, do you not realize how ridiculous you sound? Apparently, farming 6000+ gold and 250 creep kills for 2 fully charged Warmogs is just so **** easy and happens every game. This is just silly.