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-   -   Anti tank item for casters (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=566000)

Crayon Puppet 03-07-2011 12:33 PM

Anti tank item for casters
 
I think i figured it out.








MoonFire Mask

Haunting Guise + Blasting wand + 1300 gold


+350 hp
+50ap
+ 30mpen

Unique passive: Your spells do X% of your targets armor + magic resist as true damage.

Where X is equivalent to percent health missing from your target.

Kinda like olaffs passive but working against the target, the less hp ur target has the more damage your spells will do against it. and for a fairly expensive item u have to buy it strategically, stacking ap will be way more effective against high hp targets or anyone not stacking mitigation while still being able to be a better purchase than deathcap given who you are fighting against, and how many offensive spells you have.

The numbers might need tweaking but I think the overall concept could easily be balanced because it would be very effective against mitigation stackers while being pretty underwhelming against squishy targets or targets stacking health.

So An ashe with 30 armor and 20 magic resist at 50% health would only take 25 extra true damage from spells and the added damage would cap out quickly just short of 50 true damage.

While a tank with 150armor and 70 magic resist at 50 % would take an extra 110 true damage and cap out just short of 220.

I can see this being a solid item for Ap heroes to help them in the late game against tougher heroes without completely breaking them against squishier targets.

Offcourse depending on how effective the unique passive is u may want to put a 3sec cd on being able to proc the unique because champs like eve and karthus might be broken with this item (In all likely hood would be broken), but I think 3-5 second cd on the proc per spell would make it pretty feasible. Eve wouldn't be able to get a true damage proc everytime she uses hate spike, but a champ like annie could proc the true damage effect 3 times and improve her burst combos effectiveness against a target who's been stacking mitigation.

I know the numbers would need tweaking, and most peole get scared when u see true damage. But keep in mind its true damage that scales against mitigation and becomes effective as your target loses health, and the damage doesn't get out of hand. The item has 0 effectiveness against a full health target, making this a niche item for AP champs to have less one-sided interractions with tanks late game.

I know u've gotta see the practical applications to draw conclusions but if u think about the numbers a bit and keep in mind champs like karthus and eve aren't going to be doing true damage every second with their Qs and the items functions to improve burst against champions with considerable amounts of mitigation. You'ld probably agree with me that 1percent per health missing of a champions total mitigation is a little on the low side. I think a modifier of some sort would be needed to really make the item effective, like DFG gives an extra 3.5%(I think) bonus for every 100 ap, this item would probably need like a .5% bonus for every 70armor or 50magic resist(or something along those lines).

I think this could work

3v3ryone 03-07-2011 02:28 PM

that item would've to cost like 4k

Crayon Puppet 03-07-2011 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3v3ryone (Hozzászólás 6786971)
that item would've to cost like 4k

its at 3600 right now, i dont see why it needs to cost more than a mandreds

Timed Paradox 03-07-2011 04:10 PM

nooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPE

besmurchfreely 03-08-2011 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2992011 (Hozzászólás 6784130)
I think i figured it out.








MoonFire Mask

Haunting Guise + Blasting wand + 1300 gold


+350 hp
+50ap
+ 30mpen

Unique passive: Your spells do X% of your targets armor + magic resist as true damage.

Where X is equivalent to percent health missing from your target.

Kinda like olaffs passive but working against the target, the less hp ur target has the more damage your spells will do against it. and for a fairly expensive item u have to buy it strategically, stacking ap will be way more effective against high hp targets or anyone not stacking mitigation while still being able to be a better purchase than deathcap given who you are fighting against, and how many offensive spells you have.

The numbers might need tweaking but I think the overall concept could easily be balanced because it would be very effective against mitigation stackers while being pretty underwhelming against squishy targets or targets stacking health.

So An ashe with 30 armor and 20 magic resist at 50% health would only take 25 extra true damage from spells and the added damage would cap out quickly just short of 50 true damage.

While a tank with 150armor and 70 magic resist at 50 % would take an extra 110 true damage and cap out just short of 220.

I can see this being a solid item for Ap heroes to help them in the late game against tougher heroes without completely breaking them against squishier targets.

Offcourse depending on how effective the unique passive is u may want to put a 3sec cd on being able to proc the unique because champs like eve and karthus might be broken with this item (In all likely hood would be broken), but I think 3-5 second cd on the proc per spell would make it pretty feasible. Eve wouldn't be able to get a true damage proc everytime she uses hate spike, but a champ like annie could proc the true damage effect 3 times and improve her burst combos effectiveness against a target who's been stacking mitigation.

I know the numbers would need tweaking, and most peole get scared when u see true damage. But keep in mind its true damage that scales against mitigation and becomes effective as your target loses health, and the damage doesn't get out of hand. The item has 0 effectiveness against a full health target, making this a niche item for AP champs to have less one-sided interractions with tanks late game.

I know u've gotta see the practical applications to draw conclusions but if u think about the numbers a bit and keep in mind champs like karthus and eve aren't going to be doing true damage every second with their Qs and the items functions to improve burst against champions with considerable amounts of mitigation. You'ld probably agree with me that 1percent per health missing of a champions total mitigation is a little on the low side. I think a modifier of some sort would be needed to really make the item effective, like DFG gives an extra 3.5%(I think) bonus for every 100 ap, this item would probably need like a .5% bonus for every 70armor or 50magic resist(or something along those lines).

I think this could work

Uhh so its kinda like garen's ultimate added on to every ability you use?

If you are really intent on bursting down tanks with a caster type champ you should check out malazahar. His null zone does a percent of the enemies hp per second, and the percent increases with AP. If you use your ult on them when they are inside your null zone, they won't be able to escape. Also once you get a voidstaff you ignore more magic resist the more they have. So basically It doesn't matter how much hp and magic resist they have, you can still kill them.

If you have not tried him yet, you should. Basically his ability to burst down tanks is one of the things that makes him unique, and giving that ability to everyone would devalue him as a champion.

Enjuine 03-08-2011 04:34 AM

Anti Tank caster items = Void Staff and Deathfire Grasp. What you are suggesting would be ridiculously OP at almost any price. You have to be really careful with things that punish opponents for having higher items/stats. At the moment, there are only 2 (Veigar/Trundle Ults). True damage is also something you have to be careful with. There are only 5 of those (Cho, Olaf, Irelia, Corki, Kog) on champions, plus Ignite. Combining True damage with inverse rewards for you opponents is just too much trouble to deal with. Especially considering you are suggesting this be applied to every single spell. would be like the old Locket in that it'd be gamebreakingly OP on champions with fast casting. Karthus is first to mind, but there are plenty others I'm sure.

Soiyeruda 03-08-2011 04:48 AM

- Too expensive for the stats, considering you lose 15 AP, and only gain 150 HP and 10 MPen, along with a situational-ish passive, for the price of a Needless Rod. Deathcap costs slightly less, but has 3x the AP bonus, and buffs the AP on the rest of your items. You'd be better off getting Deathcap.
- Would have to be balanced for champions with spamable abilities. (Eve, Ryze, Karthus, etc.) Additionally, this might synergize too well with some non-AP champions who happen to use spells as their main form of damage.
- Personally think the passive is counter intuitive. Normally, you want to target the squishier enemies first, and the passive will only start doing decent damage on tanky champions who are being focused. Basically, if you get to a point where you start seeing your passive deal 150+ damage per spell cast, then something is wrong. =x

idioSyncr4zy 03-08-2011 06:10 AM

Why does no one ever consider Deathfire Grasp? It's great for bursting down tanks. I use deathfire all the time on casters and tear tanks apart (after the rest of the team) or their high HP carries (vlad).

Crayon Puppet 03-08-2011 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by besmurchfreely (Hozzászólás 6801203)
Uhh so its kinda like garen's ultimate added on to every ability you use?

If you are really intent on bursting down tanks with a caster type champ you should check out malazahar. His null zone does a percent of the enemies hp per second, and the percent increases with AP. If you use your ult on them when they are inside your null zone, they won't be able to escape. Also once you get a voidstaff you ignore more magic resist the more they have. So basically It doesn't matter how much hp and magic resist they have, you can still kill them.

If you have not tried him yet, you should. Basically his ability to burst down tanks is one of the things that makes him unique, and giving that ability to everyone would devalue him as a champion.

He's one caster who has a reasonable kit against tanks. I dunno even if true damage isn't the solution I think the interraction between tanks and casters late game feels pretty horrible for the overwhelming majority of casters.

Crayon Puppet 03-08-2011 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by idioSyncr4zy (Hozzászólás 6802399)
Why does no one ever consider Deathfire Grasp? It's great for bursting down tanks. I use deathfire all the time on casters and tear tanks apart (after the rest of the team) or their high HP carries (vlad).

DFG is an anti hp item, not an anti tank item (tanks build mitigation) I'm not saying dfg is bad I build it too and I probably build it on more champs than most players while using it effectively Nid/Kat/Annie and others. If it was truly a tank counter item, then it would truly force tanks to diverge from there optimal builds defend against it. But when viegar buys a dfg and starts doing a ton of damage with it, tanks buy more magic resist which was what they were buying against viegar to begin with. The item pushed a tank further in the direction they were going to go to begin with. And if u consider that when u do damage is more important than how much damage you do DFG is pretty crappy item to use against some one stacking magic resist. I use death fire a lot too and its a pretty bad item to use against a tank. If they are mitigating magic damage and tanking u're throwing a spell at a tank that would be better used against a vlad or a morgana or to insta gibb a carry.


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