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-   -   Twisted Fate's Rework (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=47936)

Chopstyx 01-17-2010 01:41 AM

Twisted Fate's Rework
 
Since it's been pretty much accepted now that Cardmaster is going to be getting a rework, I want to get your opinion on it. Are you excited about it, dreading it, or what's up? It'd be interesting to see both sides of the discussion, from those who play TF and those who don't.

I'm a TF player myself. Picked him up the third time I started playing and pretty much played him exclusively afterwards, with an occasional dash of Gangplank, Singed, and Udyr. That was right before the beta ended, and I never did play DotA before that. I do branch out into other heroes occasionally, but at the end of the day I always go back to TF if I feel like playing a good game. As it is, I know TF is rather OP - that point is pretty much uncontested, what with his amazing early game presence and all game map control.

I'm actually kind of looking forwards to what the rework will bring to Twisted Fate, and how differently he will play. It's always fun to see something change. At the same time I'm also rather worried. Hopefully he won't end up completely different.

How about you guys?

Tetrall Mors 01-17-2010 01:47 AM

I am looking forward to it. I've always been a fan of the character model, but in the right hands he completely shuts down any aggressive play.

HairyDan 01-17-2010 01:54 AM

TBH I'm not looking forward to it. I mean, I despise people playing with 5 "Kage's Lucky Pick"s And rushing to an obscene amount of IP but that could be fixed by simply lowering his ratios

Omega Taurus 01-17-2010 02:21 AM

TF holds the key to victory, it is Destiny you see.
With the hit of the R then E he giggles with glee.
You see this activates the gate which all players hate.
You see the coiling of cards, but his range has yards.
Above his head flashes gold, then it starts to feel cold.
You died to his two abilities with almost no CD's.

boni 01-17-2010 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omega Taurus (Hozzászólás 529494)
TF holds the key to victory, it is Destiny you see.
With the hit of the R then E he giggles with glee.
You see this activates the gate which all players hate.
You see the coiling of cards, but his range has yards.
Above his head flashes gold, then it starts to feel cold.
You died to his two abilities with almost no CD's.

Splendit.

As for the OP: I'm kind of looking forward to it, but on the other hand I'm not. I'm curious how the rework will turn out, but I fear that it might strip him of his potential and redefine his role. But well, it worked fine with Ryze, so.. :)

railspider 01-17-2010 02:44 AM

I really like the design of TF. He's a 'luck' hero, in that his Pick a Card is random in the order it'll start (I've often been saved by spamming W and getting a lucky straight up gold card to slam into someones face). I like that when desigining TF, the trade off between luck and skill was well balanced.

As is, I don't see him as vastly OP. He's better than some heroes, but then so are Udyr, Poppy, Twitch, Blitz, etc. I'd rather they rework the rubbish heroes like Warwick and Eve than nerf TF too hard.

Doctor Awesome 01-17-2010 03:27 AM

I welcome the redesign with open arms, but am afraid of what changes might be made--Twisted Fate is powerful, to be sure, but taking away some of that power might also take away his other strong suit (no pun intended)--the fact that he's so fun to play. I play Twisted Fate frequently, and feel every game he's in, he's the strongest influence on the outcome of the game; I've thought a long time about why this is, and what should and shouldn't be changed about it.

I feel like Twisted Fate has been a problematic character for a long time because his core theme is "global influence"; he is the only champion in the game that is not limited by distance or time. His teleport grants him obvious instantaneous transport anywhere on the map, and his ultimate grants him supreme knowledge of the enemy's tactics. Wild Cards makes him one of the fastest champions for mowing down minions and pushing lanes, and Pick A Card is up there as one of the most potent and reliable disables in the game, not even factoring in his omniscience and omnipresence.

Considering that, in LoL as in all combat, time is of the essence, it could be said that Twisted Fate has the strongest abilities of all: where all other champions require time to act, and therefore give the opponent time to respond, Twisted Fate is able to act not just instantly and unpredictably, but without fear of retaliation due to his ability to observe enemy movements infallibly. A very smart man named Sun Tzu had something to say about what happens when you are always acting and the enemy is always rushing to keep up--and it doesn't end well for the other guys. If the legendary tactician played League of Legends, I imagine he'd probably play Cardmaster.

The problem with reworking Twisted Fate lies in the fact that he has the classic combination that is the kiss of death to game balance in any competitive game: not only is he extraordinarily powerful when played well, he is very, very fun to play. This means that not only will he be widespread, making his influence a dominating aspect of the metagame, but it's difficult to change him--how do you weaken an overpowered character without making him less fun? The key is to identify what aspects make him fun, and try and isolate them mechanically from what makes him too powerful.

A quick (and I use the term loosely) assessment of his features:

First, the ability to instantly travel anywhere. Not inherently flawed, because LoL is well balanced in the regard that there is a definite limit to what one man can do. It is not in Twisted Fate's mobility that the fault lies--which is good, because it's probably his most fun feature; this should probably stay as-is.

Second, the ability to rapidly and efficiently destroy minions, and harass at a distance. Again, no fundamental fault, as these are natural things for an omnipresent champion to be able to do; what good is the ability to be anywhere if you can't accomplish anything upon arrival?

Third, and most importantly, the ability to see where all enemies are infallibly. Definitely flawed, as this eliminates a large amount of skill for all parties involved: a bad Twisted Fate using Destiny isn't much worse than a good Twisted Fate using it--he gets the same effect either way, only differing in the timing; and, the enemy team has absolutely no way of avoiding the skill or anticipating its use, regardless of how good of players they are. Their best hope is to Cleanse immediately and hope the entire enemy team didn't notice them blip. This is all on top of the obvious detriment of instantly foiling any tactics the enemy employed in setting up an ambush, sneaking between lanes, etc., with the push of a single button.

I am generally less than fond of infallible tactical skills, because in nearly all competitive metagames, high-end players tend to gravitate to the most consistent tools, not necessarily the strongest--they try to eliminate random chance--and wherever possible, potential for enemy interference--so that they are able to minimize the possibility of failure. Twisted Fate, possessing an ability that can all but entirely eliminate the enemy's skill at positioning, ambushing, and maneuvering without fail and without regard to the magnitude of the enemy's skill--or lack thereof on the Cardmaster's part--clearly is high on the list of variable-eliminating champions. Sun Tzu say, the true champion is not he who charges into battle and later seeks to attain victory, but he who first puts himself beyond any possibility of defeat, then waits for his enemy to deliver unto him the opportunity to seize victory; once again, I think I know who would be his champion of choice.

For similar reasons to the above, I must say I strongly disapprove of Twisted Fate's fourth feature: the potential to deliver a hard disable flawlessly using Pick A Card. You cannot make an ability such that the magnitude of its effectiveness is so drastically affected by skill without asking if the ability would be balanced if someone could perform it flawlessly every time; in any game such as this, there will inevitably be a player capable of such perfection, almost regardless of the difficulty. Such is the case with Cardmaster, aggravated by the relative ease with which the skill may be mastered; any moderately experienced player might as well forego the roulette--the outcome is very seldom in doubt, and even less so when it really matters, considering Twisted Fate is probably sitting at spawn spinning away, far removed from the chaos of the battlefield, before making his grand entrance and delivering his grievous, gilded payload.

It is the all-too-lethal combination of a foolproof hard disable with ultimate mobility and reconnaissance that makes Twisted Fate into the monster he is. A player of moderate skill can use his abilities in such a combination to deliver an almost-certainly lethal payload to any enemy before they or their allies have significant opportunity to retaliate or defend themselves, even if they are far, far beyond the Cardmaster player in terms of skill. The amount of skill it takes to prevent a Cardmaster gank is far greater than the amount of skill it takes to perpetrate one--therein lies the imbalance.

Therefore, the change I would like to see to Twisted Fate: incorporate more skill into his foolproof abilities! I would like to see, for example, Destiny become a skill-oriented map reveal that a good Twisted Fate could use better than a bad one, and a good enemy team could anticipate or respond to better than a bad one. Perhaps it could be used like Clairvoyance, revealing a target area on the map, and slowing enemies revealed by it? This would allow the clever Twisted Fate player to make educated guesses to maximize Destiny's effects, while also allowing a clever team to reconsider how to move about out of sight, hiding in places the Twisted Fate is less likely to look.

In addition, Pick A Card needs to remain skill-based, not random, but it doesn't need to deliver a hard disable. Perhaps it could cycle through several suits, each offering a different disable--a silence, a slow, an armor/magic resist reduction, and a damage bonus + extra draw? I think this would be a good way of maintaining utility but implementing more skill--deciding which disable is best for the given target, acting around what disable you've been hit with, etc--either way, easily more interesting than the binary nature of a stun.

As I have said (at great and laborious length), I think he needs to be changed and welcome it, but I sincerely hope Riot decides to keep the things most distinguishing about Twisted Fate when they do so. And I sincerely hope somebody actually reads this monstrosity I've composed. :(

railspider 01-17-2010 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doctor Awesome (Hozzászólás 529672)
I welcome the redesign with open arms, but am afraid of what changes might be made--Twisted Fate is powerful, to be sure, but taking away some of that power might also take away his other strong suit (no pun intended)--the fact that he's so fun to play. I play Twisted Fate frequently, and feel every game he's in, he's the strongest influence on the outcome of the game; I've thought a long time about why this is, and what should and shouldn't be changed about it.

I feel like Twisted Fate has been a problematic character for a long time because his core theme is "global influence"; he is the only champion in the game that is not limited by distance or time. His teleport grants him obvious instantaneous transport anywhere on the map, and his ultimate grants him supreme knowledge of the enemy's tactics. Wild Cards makes him one of the fastest champions for mowing down minions and pushing lanes, and Pick A Card is up there as one of the most potent and reliable disables in the game, not even factoring in his omniscience and omnipresence.

Considering that, in LoL as in all combat, time is of the essence, it could be said that Twisted Fate has the strongest abilities of all: where all other champions require time to act, and therefore give the opponent time to respond, Twisted Fate is able to act not just instantly and unpredictably, but without fear of retaliation due to his ability to observe enemy movements infallibly. A very smart man named Sun Tzu had something to say about what happens when you are always acting and the enemy is always rushing to keep up--and it doesn't end well for the other guys. If the legendary tactician played League of Legends, I imagine he'd probably play Cardmaster.

The problem with reworking Twisted Fate lies in the fact that he has the classic combination that is the kiss of death to game balance in any competitive game: not only is he extraordinarily powerful when played well, he is very, very fun to play. This means that not only will he be widespread, making his influence a dominating aspect of the metagame, but it's difficult to change him--how do you weaken an overpowered character without making him less fun? The key is to identify what aspects make him fun, and try and isolate them mechanically from what makes him too powerful.

A quick (and I use the term loosely) assessment of his features:

First, the ability to instantly travel anywhere. Not inherently flawed, because LoL is well balanced in the regard that there is a definite limit to what one man can do. It is not in Twisted Fate's mobility that the fault lies--which is good, because it's probably his most fun feature; this should probably stay as-is.

Second, the ability to rapidly and efficiently destroy minions, and harass at a distance. Again, no fundamental fault, as these are natural things for an omnipresent champion to be able to do; what good is the ability to be anywhere if you can't accomplish anything upon arrival?

Third, and most importantly, the ability to see where all enemies are infallibly. Definitely flawed, as this eliminates a large amount of skill for all parties involved: a bad Twisted Fate using Destiny isn't much worse than a good Twisted Fate using it--he gets the same effect either way, only differing in the timing; and, the enemy team has absolutely no way of avoiding the skill or anticipating its use, regardless of how good of players they are. Their best hope is to Cleanse immediately and hope the entire enemy team didn't notice them blip. This is all on top of the obvious detriment of instantly foiling any tactics the enemy employed in setting up an ambush, sneaking between lanes, etc., with the push of a single button.

I am generally less than fond of infallible tactical skills, because in nearly all competitive metagames, high-end players tend to gravitate to the most consistent tools, not necessarily the strongest--they try to eliminate random chance--and wherever possible, potential for enemy interference--so that they are able to minimize the possibility of failure. Twisted Fate, possessing an ability that can all but entirely eliminate the enemy's skill at positioning, ambushing, and maneuvering without fail and without regard to the magnitude of the enemy's skill--or lack thereof on the Cardmaster's part--clearly is high on the list of variable-eliminating champions. Sun Tzu say, the true champion is not he who charges into battle and later seeks to attain victory, but he who first puts himself beyond any possibility of defeat, then waits for his enemy to deliver unto him the opportunity to seize victory; once again, I think I know who would be his champion of choice.

For similar reasons to the above, I must say I strongly disapprove of Twisted Fate's fourth feature: the potential to deliver a hard disable flawlessly using Pick A Card. You cannot make an ability such that the magnitude of its effectiveness is so drastically affected by skill without asking if the ability would be balanced if someone could perform it flawlessly every time; in any game such as this, there will inevitably be a player capable of such perfection, almost regardless of the difficulty. Such is the case with Cardmaster, aggravated by the relative ease with which the skill may be mastered; any moderately experienced player might as well forego the roulette--the outcome is very seldom in doubt, and even less so when it really matters, considering Twisted Fate is probably sitting at spawn spinning away, far removed from the chaos of the battlefield, before making his grand entrance and delivering his grievous, gilded payload.

It is the all-too-lethal combination of a foolproof hard disable with ultimate mobility and reconnaissance that makes Twisted Fate into the monster he is. A player of moderate skill can use his abilities in such a combination to deliver an almost-certainly lethal payload to any enemy before they or their allies have significant opportunity to retaliate or defend themselves, even if they are far, far beyond the Cardmaster player in terms of skill. The amount of skill it takes to prevent a Cardmaster gank is far greater than the amount of skill it takes to perpetrate one--therein lies the imbalance.

Therefore, the change I would like to see to Twisted Fate: incorporate more skill into his foolproof abilities! I would like to see, for example, Destiny become a skill-oriented map reveal that a good Twisted Fate could use better than a bad one, and a good enemy team could anticipate or respond to better than a bad one. Perhaps it could be used like Clairvoyance, revealing a target area on the map, and slowing enemies revealed by it? This would allow the clever Twisted Fate player to make educated guesses to maximize Destiny's effects, while also allowing a clever team to reconsider how to move about out of sight, hiding in places the Twisted Fate is less likely to look.

In addition, Pick A Card needs to remain skill-based, not random, but it doesn't need to deliver a hard disable. Perhaps it could cycle through several suits, each offering a different disable--a silence, a slow, an armor/magic resist reduction, and a damage bonus + extra draw? I think this would be a good way of maintaining utility but implementing more skill--deciding which disable is best for the given target, acting around what disable you've been hit with, etc--either way, easily more interesting than the binary nature of a stun.

As I have said (at great and laborious length), I think he needs to be changed and welcome it, but I sincerely hope Riot decides to keep the things most distinguishing about Twisted Fate when they do so. And I sincerely hope somebody actually reads this monstrosity I've composed. :(

Whoa.

Doctor Awesome 01-17-2010 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by railspider (Hozzászólás 529707)
Whoa.

Yeah, I know, right? I ought to get some sleep...

Devil May LOL 01-17-2010 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopstyx (Hozzászólás 529444)
Since it's been pretty much accepted now that Cardmaster is going to be getting a rework,

Source?


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