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-   -   Jungle death Udyr (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=355603)

Bladesbane 11-21-2010 02:10 PM

Jungle death Udyr
 
Updated 12/15 for the new jungle.
Biggest change this patch--- jungle times. Now, phoenix is easily the superior stance. It clears faster- simple as that. Clearing time is now tremendously important, because if you gank a lane with camps left sitting, you lose.

Most games, with the build outlined here, I go 21/9/0. Put your points into AP instead of AD.


Tiger runes- (solo top)
Flat AD
Flat armor
Scaling MR
Tons of quints work well. Flat/ scaling AD, dodge, MS, experience. I prefer MS.

For Phoenix, substitute attack speed reds, and AP blues at your discretion.


Smite and flash. If you're laning or 3v3, I prefer flash/ cleanse. Cleanse makes Udyr ridiculous with treads. Don't get ghost, you have a built in ghost that will put you at over 500ms with treads or tabi. Ghost has diminishing speed boost over 500, it's a waste. If you're jungling consider getting a QSS for the first team fights, they'll CC you off their carry and you need to click that off.

Skills-
RWRE
Phoenix> Turtle> Bear > Tiger

Start cloth/ 5 hp pots at blue w/ phoneix. Kill it, full clear, gank mid or bot; whichever looks most promising. Depending on damage you take ganking, time you spend ganking, either go back to wraiths, because they've respawned, and then wolves then B, or go to wolves, clear, then gank or B. New jungle needs discretion.

*remember you and your team get nothing from failed ganks*

unless you do enough damage to make the enemy laners all bluepill. Kills are great, driving the lane back to base is good, but if you do neither you should have been doing something else and not tried. Driving one back to base and not the other doesn't matter, if that's all you're going to accomplish your time is better spent elsewhere. Never try to force a gank. You'll just get yourself or a teammate, or both, killed. You're better off not ganking a noob lane unless you're confident in being able to get a kill yourself. Nothing sucks more than losing your buffs because bad teammates decided it would be fun to cheerlead, with full health, invincible Udyr from the turret as you bear charge in from behind. 3v2 becomes 2v1, "noob Udyr wht are u doing stupid noob."

Don't gank a lane if you don't think you will get a kill, unless you have the time.

Don't "help" a lane. A 3 man lane without purpose is the worst kind of fail. When you're running around babysitting, you won't be leveling. You're losing your team gold and xp. Attack a lane with purpose and discretion only. Sucking xp from a double lane of crybabies is a good way to lose the game; sometimes you just need to ignore the QQ's, advise on how to lane better, and do what you know is best for the team. Leeching xp from bads is a good way to make them even worse. Bad laners don't mean GG either. The other team is just as likely to have just as bad of players as you do.

The quick appearance and disappearance can play some good head games with the other team and ease up pressure on a lane, but use this with discretion as it gets you no gold or xp.

Biggest key to jungling is not waiting. Always be doing something or you'll get outleveled.

Don't run half way across the map to guard a turret. If bot just got double killed, you're at the buff on the opposite side, don't go. Yeah, the rager who just got killed is going to ping-spam you to go guard their turret, but you know what? By the time you get there, they'll be 5 seconds away themselves. You can't hold 2v1 against fed laners (unless you're full health with blue) And you just spent all that time not getting gold or xp, and breaking up your jungle pattern. The biggest key to being an effective jungler is not gimping yourself by wasting time. Don't run across the map passing spawned jungle camps. It only takes a second to kill them, and you need to do it to stay competitive with levels and gold.

Now, for items we will get survivability. Early game tank builds still do quite a bit of damage with Udyr 3.0. His base damage is pretty strong on tiger without extra AD with just a lantern and hexdrinker. Go all armor/MR, don't get any HP or mana. They're a waste of cash. You'll do better learning how to conserve mana and build more defense/ offense than you will with buying mana. I'll usually build like this now--

Phage (very strong low level ganks, extra ad and health is great as well)
Merc treads
Hexdrinker (every tiger game unless they have no AP)
Wits End, early, and every game
Trinity if you want burst to kill squishies
Madreds if you want to do more damage to a few warmogs
GA
Situation items.

If they don't have much CC, or if you go ghost/cleanse, you can build lifesteal instead. Perhaps a hextech instead of the trinity, lantern instead of the phage. But, lifesteal builds fail hard when he gets kited, which is most times.


AP works on Udyr (in moderation) because-
Phoenix really has a 1.5ap scaling. .25 over 5 bursts, plus .25 on your 3rd hit.
Turtle has 0.6 ap scaling. Not giant, but when you spam that shield it will really add up at max cdr. 120 extra hp every 3.6 seconds is nothing to scoff at, especially when you're vamping at the same time. Giant chunks of damage, while being tanky. Try building phoenix with a hextech and rageblade.

Hextechs just rock on Udyr. This is why you should build one: Less kited- the activate lets you stick to a target better. Tiger rake gets vamped. *Especially* if you have a WoTA on your team, I want you to figure 40% of a tiger rake with a lantern, hexdrinker, and hextech. Plus Phoenix passive and active burst get vamped, albeit at 1/3rd, but it still really adds up. You usually have creeps around the fight. Figure, team fight, 8 targets. Each phoenix activate will give you the passive and active, for a total of 250ish damage per target all together. 40% of about 1800, x 1/3rd, every 5 seconds. And don't forget the giant lifesteal you're getting from every autoattack. About 60% in turtle form. Seriously, you alternate tiger/phoenix/turtle/tiger/turtle/tiger/phoenix/turtle (so that you aren't constantly reactivating your passive phoenix, let it work it's 5 seconds before a reactivate) You can 2v1 after the hextech. This will be the height of your strength, take advantage of it and play very aggressive, and for the love of Udyr never run. You don't vamp or lifesteal when you're running.

On the other hand---- lifesteal builds don't work that well when you're being kited. You can 2v1, but it is sometimes wasted gold in a team fight. Play to your enemy here.

Basically, tanky DPS items with one good offensive item of your choice after GA. This build, after a GA, will put you over 150 armor/ MR and with an impressive AD to boot.

This armor/MR, with not a whole lot of health :D is an uber taunt. They'll focus you, your turtle is solid steel with all the armor and MR, and they won't kill you. Lifesteal becomes more and more and more relevant the more mitigation and less HP you have. And if they do kill you, the GA will bring you back at almost half life, ready to finish them off. With this item build, you are still a deadly force to be reckoned with after a GA revival instead of a nearly dead cho or mundo.

The number one thing to remember after you have lifesteal- don't run. Especially if they have slows, if you look at a situation and say "man, I'm screwed." You might not be. Turtle/ Tiger, with lifesteal and vamp, can keep you alive much longer than you think. Long enough for your team to get there and you'll come out of it alive, or long enough to get a kill, or two.
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Lets look at a breakdown of Udyr's abilities, and what benefits them.

Tiger--- Base damage, plus 1.7 AD scaling. 2 seconds for the dot. The double proc on a charge is where the magic happens, practice it. Tiger, bear, stun/ rake, turtle off retaliation, then tiger again for: 1 hit from bear, 2 from turtle, 1 from the tiger, plus 2 rakes for 3.4x your AD. Total of 7.4x AD in 4 hits. Crazy.

Turtle-- Base shield, plus .6 AP scaling, and the lifesteal benefits from AS and AD.

Phoenix-- Initial damage, plus 1.25 AP over 5 seconds. 3 hit burst, benefits from AS and AP. .25 scaling on the burst. Over 5 seconds, that is 1.5 AP scaling, plus base damage from the waves and burst. This can often go over 550 per target. You don't need to stay in stance after the 3rd hit, the 5 second waves carry over. Also great for chasing, since you don't need to hit to still get a kill on a nearly dead enemy speeding away.
Positioning is everything with phoenix in a team fight. Hit as many as you can with the burst, and remember you don't shoot it out your a$$.

Typically, you'll always build tanky, and get one decent offensive item complimenting tiger/ phoenix, depending on which you max first. Bloodthirster (madatory GA first) is a really great item for tiger. Rageblade is great for phoenix, and hextech is an all around all-star and the best choice for late game. Also of note, wit's end vs ap heavy teams.

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Rageblade stacks max in light speed stance dancing and attacking. Cheapest, most efficient dps item you can get for phoenix tankdyr. Good addition to an otherwise full tank build.

Hextech lifesteal AND spell vamp AND supergank activate are awesome. You vamp and lifesteal some sick, sick life off phoenix. However, it's also pretty expensive and it's components aren't nearly as effective. Cutlass has nearly a melee range activate. Udyr benefits a ton from vamp, try it out. Tiger rake gets vamped as well. This item is boss if you get a few kills and can afford it.

Hexdrinker is not to be underestimated. AD and MR, plus the 300pt shield benefits from your mitigation heavy build and stacks with turtle. I get it almost every game.

FoN is usually unnecessary, unless you're up against all AP.

Don't get a banshees. You can turtle off ults, and the HP/mana is a waste (compared to what else you could get.) The MR isn't as good as what you'll get off an abyssal scepter, and it offers no AP to boot. Don't get me wrong, banshee's is a core tank item. For *other* tanks. You don't need it for protection against vlad/karthus/lux ults, your turtle is more than enough. Well timed, turtle will eat ults and bombs all game long. Good teams know to pop your BV before they stun anyway.

I've had much better results going a bit tanky first, then dps later. You still have some strong base damage from your abilities, make yourself a hard to kill DPSer instead of a slightly tougher breed of glass cannon. You're intimidating and will get focused. No good if you can't life through it. Cheaper tanky dps items are also great to start with. Phage, hexdrinker, lantern.
Carrydyr can really be a force to be reckoned with, until they learn to focus you down. Then you become Squishdyr and Feedyr. Always build tanky.


These are all the items you should pick from in your build.

Lantern
-Lifesteal is more and more valuable the more mitigation, and less hp, you have.
Madred's
-Unless they have 3+ high HP tanks, get a lantern instead.
Treads/ Tabi
-Treads when they have massive CC. Otherwise, Tabi with nimbleness is the way to go.
Hexdrinker
-Always, unless they have no AP.
Phage
Warden's Mail
-This is a great item by itself when they have multiple auto-attackers.
Thornmail
Abyssal Scepter
GA
-A must have on every high mitigation/ lifesteal build. Each time, always, and early.
FoN
-Substitute for your strong offensive item against AP heavy teams- you don't need damage to kill Veigar, you need to live through his combo to do it.
Bloodthirster
-Mandatory GA first. Great item if you can keep the stacks, if not, get a hextech.
Rageblade
-Was better when tiger scaled off AP, but it is still great in team fights. Stacks in light speed, and beefs up your turtle/ phoenix considerably.
Hextech
-My absolute favorite offensive item on Udyr. You'll only get one, and this baby is the one to get. AD, AP, lifesteal, spellvamp, and the best activate you could want for him. If you have a WoTA on the team, you're now at 46% lifesteal in turtle and 40% vamp. With all your mitigation, so long as you're attacking you will be very, very hard to kill.
Spirit Visage
-When you're expecting to be tanking more than usual. Yes, it effects lifesteal and spellvamp.

What not to get--------------
Infinity Edge. You are paying for criticals you don't get with turtle, which you will use many times.

Phantom Dancer. AS, and move speed are nice, but again, you're also paying for crits that you won't benefit from in turtle.

Anything with life or mana. Never spend money on health. Never ever ever. Get armor/MR instead. On a 3500hp Udyr, a 220pt turtle is worthless. On 1800hp, 200ac/MR Udyr, a 300pt turtle is incredible. You will never die. Note, some HP is ok. A little bit can be quite beneficial. Phage, haunting guise, spirit visage.

I don't like Randuin's much anymore. Used to be core, but the CDR is negligible and armor got hit hard. I'd rather get the more cost efficient stats of a GA/ Thornmail instead, unless they're a very autoattack heavy team. Then yes, get it early. This is also a great chasing item on those times you do get it.

Tips-----

Don't, Do Not Underestimate cheaper mid-game items. Brutalizer, hexdrinker, spirit visage. They're game winners, nuff said. 19/20 games, you won't go long enough to need to sell that hexdrinker anyway. When you focus only on uber expensive, long run, end game items and builds, you're sacrificing mid-game strength which is where most games are decided.

Your low HP is a very effective passive taunt, and your turtle, with crazy armor and MR, make you much much tougher than many teams will think. Don't main tank for your team, you have no real taunt or initiate. But when your tank ults in, you are right there charging their carry. Half of them will focus you, and this is to their loss as you can take a whole lot more than they think spamming a 300pt turtle every 3.6 seconds. That's passively absorbing almost 100 dps before they even touch your health. Also, it is easy to get about 150 AP on Udyr fairly early with abyssal scepter and a rageblade/ hextech. That's 200ish extra damage from phoenix on each activate (assuming 3rd hit.) Tiger/phoenix/turtle in team fights- this order specifically. Your AS from tiger carries over to phoenix, which makes those 3 hits happen fast enough. If you're getting focused, against a carry switch to tiger/ turtle, if there are several near go phoenix/ turtle. Generally, tiger will be your single target dps, and phoenix for more than one enemy. Tiger/bear/tiger their weakest carry upon initiating, you're a pretty solid anti-carry. Chasing, go phoenix/bear. Even if you don't hit them, that aura can do a ton after it's beefed up with some AP. 1.25 scaling over 5 seconds. Over 300pts damage just by staying close, no hit needed.

After you get your hextech, try fighting 1 on 1 in the middle of an enemy creep wave, or by neutral creeps. You will passively regenerate crazy amounts of health with phoenix.

This is my favorite, but not the only, way to build him. It is effective against many team comps, as the mitigation build makes your turtle very, very relevant. However, against teams with true damage, you'll want to build a more HP centric Udyr or maybe just pick someone more suited to high HP builds, like Amumu.

Bear is a very effective ult- buster. Use it on anyone who channels or has a sustained ult. For example, Warwick. You can't stun fiddle out of a drain, but you can interrupt his ult channeling. There is nothing more rewarding than stunning WW out of his ult though... itsaaa niiiiceee.

*Always* get a GA in the high mitigation, low HP builds. When you build more HP, don't. High hp tanks don't benefit from it much, get some more things that will keep you from dying in the first place. A GA revival on 200 Armor/ MR Udyr, at half health and a ton of lifesteal/ vamp, can be a bit shocking for that half dead veigar and lux hunkering over your pseudo-corpse.

You can solo baron at 17 with a lantern, GA, hexdrinker, treads, and hextech/ bloodthirster.

Tiger, then bear for ganks. The dot will trigger when you bear stun. Then tiger again for some crazy burst.

Udyr does not have high health. This makes his turtle shield very relevant. In a 7 (.2) second fight, you can turtle 3 times. This adds almost 1000 hp to Udyr. Turtle every time it is up. Spam it, while not neglecting your other stances. Makes him much stronger than he looks, and makes many a Yi underestimate him.

Eat Yi. Constantly. Most Yi's will feed you, and the smart ones will run when they see you. Yi (or any other melee) is Udyr food.
Do not fight jax or WW alone. Those are the 2 who will beat you 1 on 1, if you're on even footing.

When cleanse/ghost is not up, be careful. Enemy team will be wary of Udyr and try ganking. You cannot (cleanse/ghost)/turtle/bear away if clease is on cooldown.

Bear is your GTFO. Don't just bear and run. Bear, stun your attacker, then run. By the time stun wears off, you are out of range of many of their abilities. Even if you're almost dead, stun them first. It works. They'll often see you almost dead and think you are indeed almost dead. Their mistake. Your ghost, bear and turtle will keep them chasing til under your turret, at which point you tiger (to get the dot up) turtle (2 sec shield) bear, whack them in the face, tiger, then turtle again. The shield will ward off their hit if they get you before you stun them, and after it doesn't matter. Stun and rake under your turret, with a turtle shield to absorb their counterattack, is a great way to get a kill.

Most of the time, you'll be better served by standing and fighting than you would be with running. With lifesteal, mitigation, and turtle, you're stronger than you think. You're stronger than they think. If you look at a situation and say "...... I'm F*cked." Do your best to kill one of them before you go down, don't run. Especially if you have a GA, you can often weaken them enough that by the time your team arrives, it's a winning fight. You don't benefit at all from lifesteal when you're running.


-------------------------------------
Lanedyr

Start with tiger. Activate in base. Boots and 3 pots is the way to go- with bear and ghost, you can catch them for the kill very early on. Focus on just last hitting, and activate tiger for the rake every time the enemy comes in range. Remember to turtle and get out fast if you have to enter their creep wave and never fight behind their creeps. Tiger rake harass will wear them down crazy fast and deny cs to boot. Get tiger/turtle/bear/tiger/tiger. By lv 3, you should be able to get a kill with the tiger/bear/tiger combo. Now that wriggle's is changed on him, I wouldn't call it core Udyr anymore.. just gonna push your lane with it and let them farm under their tower. Get a vamp scepter and turn it into a bilgewater cutlass, really great early laning iten on Udyr. Active on it really seals kills in early. I don't usually change my build much from jungling to laning.

TL Frolo 11-21-2010 02:20 PM

turtle makes jungling far too slow
take phoenix stance and start at blue
get a AS quints and marks and you are fine

MrEnzyme 11-21-2010 02:21 PM

Not sure if troll....

Why would you ever go dps Udyr over tank Udyr? Tank udyr deals substantial damage and can shut down their squishies while never dying. Phage/swiftness boots?

Benalicious 11-21-2010 03:42 PM

I always swore by tank/pheonix udyr till I played with a an Udyr who swore by tiger stance, and built Madreds/Frozen Mallet, and some other things I can't remember. He raped. Everyone. 2 or 3v1 even. Idk how, but it made me question my preconceptions on Udyr.

Bladesbane 11-22-2010 01:34 PM

@ Frolossus
Turtle Udyr still kills the jungle faster than it can respawn, and never has to go back to base once. This is why I go turtle. I bet phoenix Udyr has to go to base for heals at least once or twice, adding much time to jungle. Boots of swiftness and Phage (2350gp,) halfway to lv 8, at 11min. Time yourself as phoenix Udyr and let me know what your time/gold is, I'm curious.

@MrEnzyme

AD Udyr can still tank small fights with his sick lifesteal in turtle form. Pure tank Udyr is not my favorite, because many of his other strengths are significantly downplayed and there are other champs who will tank better. Udyr has no taunt, no CC (phoenix damage is completely negligable in a tank build.) They can just ignore you. I like to get some armor or MR on him usually, unless the other team is all melee tanks and carries- then stacked bloodthirsters are much more effective.
(never HP instead of armor/mr, makes your turtle shell much more significant and enemies underestimate you) But always start with phage and bloodthirster for ganks, chasing, and dps/lifesteal to stack with turtle. As a hybrid, I have found him to be most effective when geared as a hybrid.

boonkilla 11-22-2010 02:19 PM

good attempt at making a nice guide but its better for people that want to learn something to take advice/read a guide from someone skilled at the game or high elo or even a level 30. no one is going to read or take this seriously.

props for tellin us how you like to play him and all but id hold off on making guides right now, they are usually made by people with more experience

iwannatwirrl 11-22-2010 04:17 PM

you should consider adding innervating locket to your build. it is so stupidly good on udyr. lots of survivability and virtually infinite stance-dancing--with regen thrown in every time you do

cheshirebat 12-07-2010 12:43 PM

I decided to try a practice with this, as I normally do pheonix turtle (to clarify, I never go back to base unless to shop, or if I got ganked/ did a gank that went a bit sour). It does actually seem pretty solid. Level seven dragon without razors is quite good, and even better when it doesn't actually take forever (this surprised me).

That all said, I'm curious about a couple things in your build... namely your masteries. You insist Udyr wants 21/9/0, then go on to say that udyr does not want crit.. which I agree with. So how do you spec him? On tier one you can choose low ability power (almost useless without phoenix, as it gives turtle like, six hp and still pretty useless with phoenix) or crit (which turtle counters) The magic penetration is slightly useful for your tiger stance, but then tier 4 you come along with another crit chance... which again is somewhat useless. It seems that speccing in Offensive doesn't allow him to utilize his points to the maximum udyr potential, as well as missing out on insane defensive abilities (which he CAN use.... dodge synergizes with stance dancing, more damage soak means he has longer to lifesteal and each lifesteal is worth more) and ALSO it means you miss out on bonus xp from utilty, which gets you to level 2 after ancient golem...

I'm not saying your build is bad, I'm pretty interested in it (and was impressed with what tiger does a bit later on... say level ten), but it seems your masteries are not optimal. I want to try this out in a couple actual games to see how effective it is.

Devownious 12-07-2010 12:49 PM

Well obviously if you're jungling you need at least 8 in utility for the exp buff or youre wasting your time in the jungle.

I don't get cleanse anymore because it sucks. If the team has 3 or more stuns ill get a Sash around 13.

Theirs a plethora of different ways to Udyr and this is clearly a tiger udyr build.

TL Frolo 12-07-2010 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bladesbane (Hozzászólás 4255921)
@ Frolossus
Turtle Udyr still kills the jungle faster than it can respawn, and never has to go back to base once. This is why I go turtle. I bet phoenix Udyr has to go to base for heals at least once or twice, adding much time to jungle. Boots of swiftness and Phage (2350gp,) halfway to lv 8, at 11min. Time yourself as phoenix Udyr and let me know what your time/gold is, I'm curious.

@MrEnzyme

AD Udyr can still tank small fights with his sick lifesteal in turtle form. Pure tank Udyr is not my favorite, because many of his other strengths are significantly downplayed and there are other champs who will tank better. Udyr has no taunt, no CC (phoenix damage is completely negligable in a tank build.) They can just ignore you. I like to get some armor or MR on him usually, unless the other team is all melee tanks and carries- then stacked bloodthirsters are much more effective.
(never HP instead of armor/mr, makes your turtle shell much more significant and enemies underestimate you) But always start with phage and bloodthirster for ganks, chasing, and dps/lifesteal to stack with turtle. As a hybrid, I have found him to be most effective when geared as a hybrid.

you prioritze phoenix over turtle, you get phoenix at level one and turtle and level two to jungle fastest without needing to B


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