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-   -   Can I get some actual factual data on how this new system works, and how it is fair? (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3158147)

Endaar 02-23-2013 06:14 AM

Can I get some actual factual data on how this new system works, and how it is fair?
 
Let's get started with the facts that I know:
__________________________________________________ ______________________
I am in Silver Division 1

I just recently got the green tag for being in this division/league for 100 games. However, playing more games has not affected my LP gains or losses.

I have monitored my win rate throughout these 100 games and it has been steady bouncing between 53 and 55% win rate.

I have conversed with other players in the same EXACT league/division who get significantly higher LP gains for wins, and significantly lower LP gains for losses.

I have conversed with other players in the same EXACT league/division who have won 3 or 4 games in a row and rise from 0 LP straight to 100.

I have had more than one 7 game win streak, usually takes me up about 50 LP total.

__________________________________________________ ______________________


So this will probably come across as simply another whiny thread, but I'm actually looking for some facts or numbers on how things are calculated in this new league system. I have been browsing for weeks since its implementation seeing many similar complaints and the only replies I ever see are "mmr" and "hidden elo" and stuff like that.

Firstly, I'd like to ask the question that if something such as MMR or Hidden Elo actually exists and is what really determines your ranking, why even have the new system at all? AKA, why ditch ELO for... Hidden Elo? All that does is look really shady/stupid to me that I can't actually monitor my own or other people's places in the ranking system.

Next, assuming they exist, how are they calculated/determined? Does anybody actually have facts or numbers for these things? Has riot released any information on them other than that they exist? It's really hard to not be skeptical of the legitimacy of this new system when the real numbers are hidden...

I would also like to say that I have heard the response "the new system thinks that X person should be higher, that is why they get better gains." If this were true... think about that for a second. How is that fair? So what some person is deemed to be higher by all these new hidden numbers that they only have to win 3 or 4 games in a row to go from 0 LP to promo series with no dropoff/scaling in LP gains? (fact- see above[conversed with friends in same exact league/division]) Realistically, if they are 'better', wouldn't they have placed into a better league in the first place, OR rise naturally through competition and a not-broken system? I simply cannot wrap my head around this, why some people are handicapped and others appear to have uncapped gains.


Any actual facts or logical discussion is welcomed in my thread.

Endaar 02-23-2013 03:52 PM

Don't everyone speak at once...

Morbius2271 02-23-2013 04:18 PM

The amount of LP you get is based on your teams MMR and the other teams MMR. If people you know are getting more LP per win, its because they are playing ppl with higher MMR and winning. If you are losing more, it's because you are losing against ppl with a lower MMR than you.

So it's like this,

Lets say your MMR is 1000 (arbitrary number), and you play a team where the average MMR is 1200 and win. The base LP gain for a win is lets say 10 (another arbitrary number), but since they had X higher MMR than you, you get Y more LP, lets just make it 14 LP total. Now the system goes, ok this 1000 MMR player beat a 1200 MMR team, so he need to be ranked higher. So next game you might face a 1300 or 1400 MMR team. This continues until you lose. Lets say you lose your next game against a 1300 MMR team. The system goes, ok this 1000 MMR player beat a 1200 MMR team, but lost to a 1300 MMR team, lets adjust his MMR to something like 1250.

This allows for better matchmaking because you don't just go up or down each win or loss, instead it tests you against higher or lower opponents as needed until it can find a place for you. Basically, LoL stole the sc2 ranking system :P

Endaar 02-23-2013 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morbius2271 (Hozzászólás 34974437)
The amount of LP you get is based on your teams MMR and the other teams MMR. If people you know are getting more LP per win, its because they are playing ppl with higher MMR and winning. If you are losing more, it's because you are losing against ppl with a lower MMR than you.

So it's like this,

Lets say your MMR is 1000 (arbitrary number), and you play a team where the average MMR is 1200 and win. The base LP gain for a win is lets say 10 (another arbitrary number), but since they had X higher MMR than you, you get Y more LP, lets just make it 14 LP total. Now the system goes, ok this 1000 MMR player beat a 1200 MMR team, so he need to be ranked higher. So next game you might face a 1300 or 1400 MMR team. This continues until you lose. Lets say you lose your next game against a 1300 MMR team. The system goes, ok this 1000 MMR player beat a 1200 MMR team, but lost to a 1300 MMR team, lets adjust his MMR to something like 1250.

This allows for better matchmaking because you don't just go up or down each win or loss, instead it tests you against higher or lower opponents as needed until it can find a place for you. Basically, LoL stole the sc2 ranking system :P

Has this actually been posted somewhere by Riot, or are you just speculating?

What you are saying doesn't really make sense based on the facts that I already know. If I am supposed to be matching with people similar to my level, or sometimes above my level, that would suggest that some times I would see great gains and others I would see only smaller LP gains. This is not true - I only see slightly increased gains when I am 0-30 LP, after 30 I get no more than 10 per win between 30 and 60, after 60 it's less than 10, scaling down to only a few points at the higher LP levels. No matter when I lose it is going to be almost double of what I have been gaining recently, meaning I am expected to maintain close to a 75+ win percentage, including a hot streak of ~ 10 game win as I approach 100.

However, other players in my exact same league only have/had to win 3 games in a row to go from 20LP straight to 100 - so they are clearly not being matched with people around their level either, but seem to have such an obvious advantage when it comes to gaining a promotion. I have spectated many games of people in my same league/division and they are playing with all silvers and golds on their team and the opposing team... the same mixture of players that are seen consistently in my games.

So,
Assuming what you say is true, how does one raise their MMR to the point where they have to only win a few games to rank up? How is MMR calculated? I am still after some real numbers here.

angryWelchMan 02-23-2013 05:14 PM

The person above me is a little wrong. this is going to be a long post as I will try to explain everything this thread also explains a lot especially in the first post (by roit)

First thing is that your league division and LP have nothing to do with match making. Your matching making is purely on your MMR(a new reformulated hidden elo). If you play your placement matches win them all and get placed in gold 4 but then go on a 30 game losing streak. You wont drop below gold five but will have a 10 and 30 record and your MMR will probably drop to low silver or upper bronze. Publicly your lucky streak in your placement matches means your are a GOLD 5 player but your skill doesn't seam to be at that level so your playing with all low silver/ upper bronze players based on your MMR.

Secondly your need to understand what happens when you win a game. When you win the system looks at the average MMR (skill level) of your team and the opponents team and gives your a certain MMR gain based on the difference. If your teams MMR is higher then you should have won and you don't gain a lot of MMR however if the enemies MMR is higher then you should have lost and therefore your MMR is increased more.

Now to keep your MMR from fluctuating too much based on a lucky win from being carried there is an additional variable called confidence. I'm not sure how is works other because riot has only mentioned it in passing and its hard (impossible) to observe but it measure how sure the system is of your MMR and correlates with number of games played (because more data leads to greater confidence). The higher this number the less MMR you gain or lose per game. This is very similar to the old elo system however it is all hidden. I will try to riots reasoning as to why at the bottom once i have explained how the system works

Now there as the new visible level with the league system. Each game the system again looks at how hard is was to win based on the difference in MMR between the teams and gives you a reward of LP. The Harder it was to win (the enemy has a greater MMR) the greater your gains and the lesser your losses.

There is one more phenomenon regarding LP gains. Note this only effects gains and not losses. If you are in the 1 division (silver 1 gold 1 ect) the system looks at your MMR based on a guidelines for each tier. For instance silver players should have at least and MMR of 1050(this may not be the exact right number). If your MMR isn't close enough to the next level, the system will "clamp down" and give you only 1 or 2 lp per win until you get your MMR up to close to the next level expected MMR. there was a thread in GD I think (which i can't accesses right now for some reason) that goes more indepth about clamping and they tried to easy it up in the last patch

There are two purposes for the new system. The first is to solidify accomplishments. For instance once your gold your gold for all of season 3 even if you forget how to play as long as your play a ranked game every now and again. The second is that with one logn ladder advancing is discouraging because "woot im 314567 place now :( " under the old system versus "yes i jsut made gold 5 :D" under the new system.

As for exact numbers, you can guess at your MMR based on your LolKing score. My LolKing score is 1150 and i have gain 74 in the last seven days. I am 1/2 in my advancement series to silver and have been gaining about 20-25 LP per victory and losing 8-10 per loss and haven't experienced clamping. To get the numbers for Silver 1 you could look up some people in your league who are raising on lolking.net and see what their LolKing score is.

As for your last question. The only way to improve your MMR is to constiently win. Your LolKing score is 1452 and to advanced to gold i think it is around 1500-1550 needed so your probably experiencing a little clamping. In the last seven days your gone 24 and 26 but gained 8 on the LolKing score. To get to gold your going to need to increase that Win % probably

Endaar 02-23-2013 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angryWelchMan (Hozzászólás 34975917)
The person above me is a little wrong. this is going to be a long post as I will try to explain everything this thread also explains a lot especially in the first post (by roit)

First thing is that your league division and LP have nothing to do with match making. Your matching making is purely on your MMR(a new reformulated hidden elo). If you play your placement matches win them all and get placed in gold 4 but then go on a 30 game losing streak. You wont drop below gold five but will have a 10 and 30 record and your MMR will probably drop to low silver or upper bronze. Publicly your lucky streak in your placement matches means your are a GOLD 5 player but your skill doesn't seam to be at that level so your playing with all low silver/ upper bronze players based on your MMR.

Secondly your need to understand what happens when you win a game. When you win the system looks at the average MMR (skill level) of your team and the opponents team and gives your a certain MMR gain based on the difference. If your teams MMR is higher then you should have won and you don't gain a lot of MMR however if the enemies MMR is higher then you should have lost and therefore your MMR is increased more.

Now to keep your MMR from fluctuating too much based on a lucky win from being carried there is an additional variable called confidence. I'm not sure how is works other because riot has only mentioned it in passing and its hard (impossible) to observe but it measure how sure the system is of your MMR and correlates with number of games played (because more data leads to greater confidence). The higher this number the less MMR you gain or lose per game. This is very similar to the old elo system however it is all hidden. I will try to riots reasoning as to why at the bottom once i have explained how the system works

Now there as the new visible level with the league system. Each game the system again looks at how hard is was to win based on the difference in MMR between the teams and gives you a reward of LP. The Harder it was to win (the enemy has a greater MMR) the greater your gains and the lesser your losses.

There is one more phenomenon regarding LP gains. Note this only effects gains and not losses. If you are in the 1 division (silver 1 gold 1 ect) the system looks at your MMR based on a guidelines for each tier. For instance silver players should have at least and MMR of 1050(this may not be the exact right number). If your MMR isn't close enough to the next level, the system will "clamp down" and give you only 1 or 2 lp per win until you get your MMR up to close to the next level expected MMR. there was a thread in GD I think (which i can't accesses right now for some reason) that goes more indepth about clamping and they tried to easy it up in the last patch

There are two purposes for the new system. The first is to solidify accomplishments. For instance once your gold your gold for all of season 3 even if you forget how to play as long as your play a ranked game every now and again. The second is that with one logn ladder advancing is discouraging because "woot im 314567 place now :( " under the old system versus "yes i jsut made gold 5 :D" under the new system.

As for exact numbers, you can guess at your MMR based on your LolKing score. My LolKing score is 1150 and i have gain 74 in the last seven days. I am 1/2 in my advancement series to silver and have been gaining about 20-25 LP per victory and losing 8-10 per loss and haven't experienced clamping. To get the numbers for Silver 1 you could look up some people in your league who are raising on lolking.net and see what their LolKing score is.

As for your last question. The only way to improve your MMR is to constiently win. Your LolKing score is 1452 and to advanced to gold i think it is around 1500-1550 needed so your probably experiencing a little clamping. In the last seven days your gone 24 and 26 but gained 8 on the LolKing score. To get to gold your going to need to increase that Win % probably

Again, this isn't really telling me anything I don't already know.

You say you gain 20-25LP per win and lose 8-10 per loss... this seems to be the case for most people I talk to. I gain ~7-12 per win, and lose ~14-18 per loss. I was at 1500 elo before the new system, and my LoLking score/elo has remained between 1450-1500 since the new system implemented. I'm not experiencing recent clamping, I have been clamped from the start.

All of the stuff about how my team's MMR being higher some games and that is why I get less LP for those games doesn't make logical sense because I have always got nearly twice the LP for a loss than I have for a win, after about ~40LP. It isn't like I get a lot of LP for a win one game, then less the next, based on my opponents. It seems more like I get less and less the further I get towards 100, no matter what. If I keep winning, I will never get more LP one game than I did the game before.

However, other people I know who have risen from Silver 4 or 5, and are now in gold, with an overall worse win percentage than myself, get similar gains to you (20-30 for a win, 8-12 for a loss)... with no scaling or clamping. This means that you only even have to win ~33% of your matches and you will still rank up?

Again, thank you for your speculation on how the system works, but pretty much all of the points you made don't make sense based on the facts I already know or have experienced.

angryWelchMan 02-23-2013 05:57 PM

Firstly I am not speculating on 90% of this. The only real speculation is on how the confidence variable works, the rest comes right from riot.
Secondly you are experiencing clamping. Now based on your post I am assuming you've been in silver 1 then whole time under the new league system. Your MMR (stop using the word elo it just confuses people) had been in the silver 1 range 1450-1500. At least in the last 7 days you have been winning about half of your games so you are probably where you belong. If your were to go on a win streak and get that MMR to 1550 the system will unclamp and you will gain more LP and advanced.

Endaar 02-23-2013 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angryWelchMan (Hozzászólás 34977094)
Firstly I am not speculating on 90% of this. The only real speculation is on how the confidence variable works, the rest comes right from riot.
Secondly you are experiencing clamping. Now based on your post I am assuming you've been in silver 1 then whole time under the new league system. Your MMR (stop using the word elo it just confuses people) had been in the silver 1 range 1450-1500. At least in the last 7 days you have been winning about half of your games so you are probably where you belong. If your were to go on a win streak and get that MMR to 1550 the system will unclamp and you will gain more LP and advanced.


Where are you seeing my MMR? It seems to me that you are referring to Lolking score when talking about MMR. Lolking score =/= MMR. Lolking score is directly derived from where you are LP wise in your League/Division. For instance, Silver 1, where I am, is a range between 1430 Lolking Score (at 0 LP) - 1500 (at 100 LP). This can be easily seen by going down the list of players in your league and searching all the names on Lolking. You will quickly see that it is a direct correlation. If my lolking score were 1550, like you say I need to be 'unclamped' , that would mean I am already in the Gold 5 division.

And if I am winning half my games (53-55% to be exact, check my first post), and others are winning ~40% and ranking up, why am I not ranking up?

Edit: Also, please refrain from claiming you are not speculating but then providing no proof, facts, numbers, or data of any kind from an official source. This thread is about the REAL numbers... that is what I want to find and to see.

IamCaptainGinyu 02-23-2013 06:36 PM

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/32525030

This shows your approximated MMR (not sponsored by Riot). Here's the deal: you've played a lot of games while silver 1, winning about half of them (a touch more). They system has clamped down on you, so winning your way to gold will require beating several teams in a row that have higher MMR in total than your team has.

Basically, you've won 55% of your games, but apparently an inordinate number of those were against inferior opponents, which is why you didn't gain much overall. You can see from the graph at the bottom that you got close to the gold playoff several times though.

Endaar 02-23-2013 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamCaptainGinyu (Hozzászólás 34978190)
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/32525030

This shows your approximated MMR (not sponsored by Riot). Here's the deal: you've played a lot of games while silver 1, winning about half of them (a touch more). They system has clamped down on you, so winning your way to gold will require beating several teams in a row that have higher MMR in total than your team has.

Basically, you've won 55% of your games, but apparently an inordinate number of those were against inferior opponents, which is why you didn't gain much overall. You can see from the graph at the bottom that you got close to the gold playoff several times though.


Did you really just link me to my Lolking page? - haha

Again, no where on that page does it show my MMR. Please see my prior post ^

Also again, I have played a lot of games in silver 1, yes, but my gains have not changed throughout. I have always, since game 1, received far less points for a win than what I lose for a loss. So there has been no recent clamping or anything of the sort.

None of this explains why some people are able to consistently rank up with a worse win percentage.


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