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-   -   Considering Objectives (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2778430)

leonresevil2 11-08-2012 04:57 PM

Considering Objectives
 
Now maybe I haven't learned diamond ELO tactics and tricks, but it seems to me like TT is entirely team-centric now, and not really in a good way.

The objectives on the map are clearly towers, alters, and Vilemaw. If any of them can even be completed solo, there are major disincentives (enemy has clear vision for ganking, and escape is less likely).

There is no Blue or Red buff (and thus no buff to contest), there are no valuable jungle camps. Vilemaw is an awesome boss, but changing the SR jungle to just Baron and some wraiths would clearly make it bland, no matter how cool Baron would be. The same issue can be seen here.

On the jungle topic, jungle camps can be stolen and allow for dynamic events. Altars lack this, due to the effective channel in order to unlock. There is no 'stealing' an altar without forcing out opponents. Luckily Vilemaw can be stolen, but such events are rare as players tend to abandon the fight since Vilemaw has so much disruption and damage.

In general, there are no "I'm going to..." objectives. Due to the enhanced vision and smaller effective map, sending one person to an objective will draw multiple opponents, thus requiring your team. There is no split-pushing to the degree of SR, and generally you have to win a fight to gain an objective. The frequency of altar fights makes this even more apparent. The altar system even currently rewards exchanges by injecting more gold and inflating the gold on both teams.

Overall the map fixes some structural issues but adds new problems by removing objectives, smite-stealing, and decreasing the time to arrive to fights even more. Sadly, the map was just shrunk too much to easily adjust. I think new buff camps would be needed, less space consumed by walls (long walls made dashes OP, walls that only take 1 second to walk around are fine and don't need to be thick), and another consideration over brush/vision in the map. With more jungle camps and objectives, wards could make a valid return.

Let Me Blow You 11-08-2012 05:00 PM

"Map was shrunk too much."
New map is nearly 2x as large as old map.
GG your argument.

Luego 11-09-2012 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahmehameha (Hozzászólás 31201331)
"Map was shrunk too much."
New map is nearly 2x as large as old map.
GG your argument.

Even if that's true, it's irrelevant.

Longer lanes don't matter when they're protected by towers for big portions of the game.

The "enemy jungle" doesn't matter a lot when the only way to get there is by giving vision of yourself over a speedshrine or have a lane ridiculously pushed.

Vilemaw doesn't matter when he's only attacked maybe once or twice per game, if that, given the risk/reward.

Loss of top jungle condensed the map greatly. Riot has clearly stated that they want to "force" action in the middle of the map. They've done this, whether anyone agrees or not.

leonresevil2 11-09-2012 10:28 AM

I appreciate the constructive response, thank you.

I did read about Riot wanting to force fights towards the middle of the map, and I don't really know why this is desired. SR and Dominion have certain fight location tendencies, but fights can break out nearly anywhere even in tournament games. Plus those fights can often break down into dances to control vision, as vision is power in fights. Vision items don't replace wards, and enemies can generally tell if they have been spotted. SR and Dom both have jungle paths to weave through and sneak around opponents, while TT has just made that unfeasible with vision and a tunnel for a jungle.

As for scaling up the map (>.>) it is bigger in some ways. The base is giant, almost wide as SR or Dom which is crazy. But there is a lot of space made unavailable by thick walls. The old Nexus-side routes are made almost unnecessary by the open Altar-focused jungle and obscene walls. I understand the point was to break blinks.

The Nexus itself doesn't have to be a huge building, and could in fact be built partway into this massive wall, with just enough showing to attack it from 3 sides and spawn minions. The new walls don't stop global jumps, so why mess with it? IMO, it could stand to be split right there with a walkway from base to jungle. Enemies wouldn't walk into the base as it would be defensed by a powerful tower. Maybe the walkway could be determined by altar ownership or something fancy, making these new objectives useful in more than just stats.

The new map is a good idea, it's just a bit too heavy-handed and ends up forcing too much. Counterjungling and invading is too high of a risk for the given meager rewards, and camps are constructed like SR wraiths overall, which can just be snapped up by laners in a second. The jungle ends up not scaling with players and becoming a joke. Also with minion spawns at 30 second intervals still, it's perfect for bot to wipe the wave and back up to hit a camp or 2 before the next wave comes.

I understand that the middle jungle makes ganking stronger, but at the same time the vision and massive top wall still make it difficult to gank top, plus getting caught by the jungler means EVERYONE is coming and a teamfight is forced. I could see duo-top becoming the standard, pushing the tower down asap and just forcing control of the map.

I'm interested to see what new changes are planned, and maybe they will bring new and interesting objectives.

getonmehlvl 11-09-2012 10:36 AM

They do need to add more buffs, Right now it's not worth Taking smite on TT, You only do vilemaw when the enemy team is down or you have 100% chance to get it, sense it does so much dmg.


Some suggestions.

Have a mini-vilemaw on each side that gives half the buff to 1 player (10% AS/10% CDR)

another one When you use smite on a Altar the enemy team gets no vision of anyone on the altar and the capture time takes half the duration. (this would be very good for sneaking altars and it wouldn't take allot of time)

Les Nomerables 11-09-2012 12:26 PM

So, I agree!
There's generally a dearth of objectives for junglers to take right now, and the jungle is really quite too easy. For 1.71, the jungle will be slightly harder, and the rewards will reflect that. We're also considering some more drastic changes, like replacing the Speed Shrine with an actual objective, and tweaking the Altars further such that they're not such a fixative point of conflict that the map devolves into constant combat.

I do want to clear up some misconceptions though. The base is actually not bigger than the old TT's; the playable space is actually very similar. The map itself is also about the same size, if maybe slightly larger. The big perception difference here is that there's a lot of clear space and straightforward paths, while the old TT heavily featured winding paths, dangerous brush, and tried its best to obfuscate optimal routes.

A lot of the upcoming weeks will be figuring out how we can bring the map to a healthy medium. This means re-adding some of the layered complexity of the old map, but retaining the more streamlined (NOT casual) aspects of the new one.

getonmehlvl 11-09-2012 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotNome (Hozzászólás 31225134)
So, I agree!
There's generally a dearth of objectives for junglers to take right now, and the jungle is really quite too easy. For 1.71, the jungle will be slightly harder, and the rewards will reflect that. We're also considering some more drastic changes, like replacing the Speed Shrine with an actual objective, and tweaking the Altars further such that they're not such a fixative point of conflict that the map devolves into constant combat.

I do want to clear up some misconceptions though. The base is actually not bigger than the old TT's; the playable space is actually very similar. The map itself is also about the same size, if maybe slightly larger. The big perception difference here is that there's a lot of clear space and straightforward paths, while the old TT heavily featured winding paths, dangerous brush, and tried its best to obfuscate optimal routes.

A lot of the upcoming weeks will be figuring out how we can bring the map to a healthy medium. This means re-adding some of the layered complexity of the old map, but retaining the more streamlined (NOT casual) aspects of the new one.

trying to make it more competitive? i'm glad

Stexe 11-09-2012 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotNome (Hozzászólás 31225134)
So, I agree!
There's generally a dearth of objectives for junglers to take right now, and the jungle is really quite too easy. For 1.71, the jungle will be slightly harder, and the rewards will reflect that. We're also considering some more drastic changes, like replacing the Speed Shrine with an actual objective, and tweaking the Altars further such that they're not such a fixative point of conflict that the map devolves into constant combat.

I do want to clear up some misconceptions though. The base is actually not bigger than the old TT's; the playable space is actually very similar. The map itself is also about the same size, if maybe slightly larger. The big perception difference here is that there's a lot of clear space and straightforward paths, while the old TT heavily featured winding paths, dangerous brush, and tried its best to obfuscate optimal routes.

A lot of the upcoming weeks will be figuring out how we can bring the map to a healthy medium. This means re-adding some of the layered complexity of the old map, but retaining the more streamlined (NOT casual) aspects of the new one.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Grez being a point of contention early/mid game was always fun. Having only Vilemaw really takes away from that back and forth interaction that you can see. Altars are interesting, but it isn't the same as they are positioned so far to either side. Heck, even an Altar in the middle would be better than that silly Speed Shrine.


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