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-   -   Impressions of Elise on Dom (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2732760)

Luninareph 10-27-2012 11:26 AM

Impressions of Elise on Dom
I think she's really, REALLY fun.

Whether she's underpowered or not, no idea yet. Until I get a better sense of how to build and use her, I won't be playing her in any human games; I'm not a great player and she takes excellent timing that I just don't have yet. But so far, she's fun enough for me to bother putting the time into her to try and make her human-game-ready.

My main thought so far is that I don't think a raw AP build is good on her. Both her human and spider Q have minimal AP scaling, as does her added magic damage on spider/spiderling autoattack, and her E's get no benefit from AP at all. Human W is the only skill that runs on raw AP, and while it's got a nice x0.8 ratio, it can easily be blocked by minions. On the other hand, the only thing she's got going for a raw AD build is her massive AS boost on spider-W (140% AS boost for 3 seconds!!!!) So going fully one or the other may not be a great idea.

She can probably get away with a raw AP build on SR, where she's got a safe laning phase to let her poke with human Q before she jumps into the fray and where she can easily build 400-500 AP before the game ends. In Dom games, though, I can usually only count on getting 200-300 AP before it's over, and that's not enough AP to really take much advantage of her low scaling, in my opinion.

Dom-wise, I get the impression that a hybrid assassin build might be the best way to take her. I rushed Hextech Gunblade last night and found that it boosted her survivability quite beautifully; I'm thinking of adding Aegis or GA for more defenses and Nashor's and Void Staff to round out her damage.

So at the moment I'm leaning toward: Ionian Boots, Hextech Gunblade, Nashor's, Void Staff, and Aegis/GA. It seems essential to get 40% CDR on her ASAP. Leaves a sixth item slot open for game-to-game situational building, too, which I always like. Guinsoo's would be a great default choice for that sixth slot, but the slow and survivability of Mallet or the extra nuke of DFG (even nerfed) might be more useful to her. Or you could grab Sweeper or Lightbringer when stealth champions are around, or Thornmail for autoattackers since you've already got Void Staff, or Haunting Guise if you're tight on gold. I guess you could also go something more AD-focused, too, like Youmuu's or Last Whisper! Lots of options there; lots of things to try for efficiency.

For the other people who actually want to use Elise in Dom, I'll try and keep my findings posted.

Luninareph 10-27-2012 10:38 PM

Hmm. Tonight two friends and I all played her one after the other. My friends found Guinsoo's to be wildly effective, but it didn't have quite the impact I was looking for in my Elise-play. Rylai's, on the other hand, was pretty useful, and I'm wondering whether Frozen Mallet might be even moreso.

EDIT: Interesting video on building Elise for top-lane bruiser on SR. I should see if any of these ideas translate well into Dom!


Sakuri Ono 10-27-2012 11:05 PM

I haven't gotten a chance to play her too much but personally I'm leaning towards playing her towards the Hybrid Assassin path as well. Here's what I've been tinkering with:

Sorcerer's Shoes
Rylai's (Plain Boots then straight into this)
Black Cleaver
*insert most needed defense item here*

The idea being to keep her Human Q, W, and Spider Q relevant via penetration and a small amount of AP; then letting Malady and BC crank her up to ridiculous AS levels with their on-hit effects (which you get fairly fast at that AS speed) cutting through any Armor and MR. Abyssal's there for the added MR dropping (since sometimes if the Q doesn't finish the job a quick shift to human form for a W will) and personal MR/AP.

It seems to be pretty nasty but relies on your CDR coming pretty much from Runes and Masteries. Planning on working out the bugs in the build this week.

Luninareph 10-28-2012 07:39 AM

Hmm! Seems like such a build might make her more relevant in teamfights, too, since she'll be reducing defenses for all your teammates to take advantage of.

Let us know how it works for you, please! :)

Infirc 10-28-2012 01:37 PM

inb4 Dominion Elise builds turn out to be the ultimate WTF??? Builds to players either new to the game or making a move from Sr to Dominion xD as happens with Bruiser Alistar, Tankpen Lulu, Manatank Kassadin and the everpowerful AD malzahar

And of course the most common Sr reaction "No Triforce on Jayce?!!! OMG report that noob, No triforce on Jayce!!!"

larkhill 10-28-2012 01:53 PM

after watching/playing a few games with her, i get the feeling they she was balanced around a post-item rework environment. it would make very little sense to balance anything on pre-item rework then have to rebalance it later anyway.

this causes these weird hybrid build champs that seem to require items that dont exist yet (or exist only on TT). i think i'll reserve my judgement on her until the item rework

Sakuri Ono 10-28-2012 11:56 PM

Change in build currently.

Sorcerer's Shoes
Rylai's (Plain Boots then straight into this)

VI = Variable Item.

What exactly I need for Elise's last two items seems to change so much from game to game. Sometimes it's armor, sometimes it's penetration, sometimes it's more CDR or pure AP. There doesn't seem to be anything 'set' outside of those four items at the moment. With Malady you very nearly hit 2.0 AS when your W is maxed; with no Runes or Masteries to further improve it. The Abyssal feels almost 'core' to me because Elise will almost always need some extra MR; the fact that it helps her and her team's damage doesn't hurt one little bit. To her detriment I think that good Elises vs bad Elises will come down to how well her player can choose their VIs. If you choose the wrong item for the wrong situation then you're not going to be able to pull your weight nearly as well. (You can still contribute to team fights; but your solo fight ability tanks out a bit.)

Having the Black Cleaver was nice but the bonuses it gave didn't seem to outweigh item options that directly countered what was on the field at the time. Especially since, even though the AP ratios and base-value is low, her Spider W with all her spiderlings just seems to shred anyone not packing heavy MR from the bonus Magic Damage. Generally it feels like the ~1.9 AS with W triggered is a happy number for Elise without needing to go higher; but if you need a item that has AS it won't hurt.

Also I've discovered that her skill leveling order seems to benefit from an unorthadox approach. So what it seems to work quite nicely is if I level up the Q to Rank 3 over Levels 4 and 5; then immediately switch over to maxing the W (and R when it pops). Compared to just maxing the W or the Q first this alternate route seems to work better to me for smoothing out her damage.

Additionally I've found sometimes it's best to ignore Elise's design when it comes to squishier opponents like Heimerdinger or Teemo for example. Engaging in the standard tactic of Human Q-W poking for that stronger Spider Q is only going to make you lose due to taking either too much pre-closing damage or being zoned (in the case of Heimer's turrets). For me in those cases, if I think I can kill them, I've been Spider E-ing into close range (by passing turrets, shrooms, ect. that make the poking war against your favor) and letting the W damage do the work; then Q finishing if possible (if not just Human Form over to W and Q). So it is viable under certain circumstances to open a fight in Spider and finish it in Human; despite that being the complete opposite of how Elise was 'designed' to be played.

TCWA Tigerbite 10-29-2012 05:21 AM

Glass Cannon AP. Blow them all up with the Human W!!! Bwahhahah

SamqueDe 10-29-2012 06:23 AM

Her Human W is the only real AP scaling ability. Her Q does a good amount of damage but it is only effective if the enemy is high health, so if they have more hp than you or are just more fed you get crushed.

She has no real AP burst, she has to go in and out and then go in for the kill. Which in DoM is not always viable. She is a great defender with a W human spam and going for the weakest champs in spider form after she wittles them away.

However i find an attack speed/ap build with health works out a lot better.

Rageblade/Malady/Wits End/Gun Blade/CD boots/ Nashers Tooth or HP item. Hit em fast and hard.

BigDaddyDelish 10-29-2012 11:16 AM

Elise is actually really.... really good on Dominion I think. She has a lot of fairly low cd burst, and is impossible to escape from. Assassins typically excel in Dominion, and Elise is no different.

I really like Nashor's Tooth on her. It's very cost efficient in general, and she scales well with all the stats it gives. Rylais also seems like a good pickup on her, but I find I like going Deathcap -> Nashor's first. She is surprisingly evasive so it actually works pretty well for her, and her damage is immense.

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