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-   -   ADCarries vs initiation Heavy teams (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2662773)

FaerellG 10-10-2012 11:30 AM

ADCarries vs initiation Heavy teams
 
So, I got wrecked in my last ranked game due team comp. I was playing Sivir and I got reasonably fed. I was dealing good damage, probably more than the opposing Ezreal. However, the opposing team had both a Hecarim and a Malphite.

Now, I know that ideally, I my team's pick/ban strat shouldn't have allowed the opponent to have such great initiators without a way of shutting them down early game, but they were both reasonably farmed. Every team fight, they would try to execute a Malphite/Orianna combo on me. I was generally ok to spell shield and/or flash out of it, but after that, Hecarim would barrel through and hit me at the very back of the team. I just couldn't escape him.

I packed a Banshee's for defense. I was contemplating a GA, but I felt it would make my damage too weak. However my team wasn't able to initiate, and we got facerolled late game by their superior teamfight initiation and burst.

A complaint that my team had for me was that my positioning was poor. I generally waited at the back of the team until the first initiation passed, then relied on my spell shield to survive the 2nd initiation move.

Any suggestions with regards to where I should position myself or how to play against a superior initiation team as an AD when your team lacks the ability to peel for you?

Eledhan 10-10-2012 11:53 AM

Hey, FaerellG.

I have been a long-time player of ADC, even back when there was no mobility creep, ADC's could play mid, and 100-0% burst didn't exist in the game. Ah, those were the good ole days! You might even recognize me as the author of one of the highest-viewed and highest-rated Ashe guides on these forums (the guide is supremely out-dated now, plus, I got bored of the old strategies and came up with crazy new ways to play her).

My league history has been a bit scattered over the last 2 years...but over the last couple of weeks, I finally decided to play ADC consistently and figure out what it is I need to understand better about their role in a team.

Here's my thoughts on ADC as a role, currently:

1) The importance of a dash/blink/jump as an ADC is directly related to the number of frontline tanky-DPS champions you have on your team, as well as whether your support is capable of protecting you from enemies and whether your APC is able to deal enough damage to provide a second viable target for the other team.

2) The importance of a dash/blink/jump as an ADC is directly related to the number of dashes the enemy team has to throw your way, easy-to-land hard CC, and the existence of an assassin in their lineup.

3) The importance of a dash/blink/jump as an ADC is directly related to your ability to position properly in a team fight.

4) The importance of a dash/blink/jump as an ADC is directly related to living through an opposing kill-lane skill shot combo (such as J4/Leo).

As you can see...the current environment for ADC's is quite hostile if they don't have a dash/blink other than flash. The sad truth of the current state of the League is that you almost always need to have a dash/blink/jump in your kit just to survive long enough to be of any use.

This means your picks are pretty much limited to (in alphabetical order), Caitlyn, Corki, Ezreal, Graves, Tristana, and Vayne. Picking any other champion when any of the 4 dangerous situations above exist in the pre-game picks will almost certainly doom you to failure.

I could further elaborate on this, but I think if you can determine whether or not your team has a threatening frontline to hide behind, whether your support can peel any enemy dashers/assassins that can jump on you, and whether there is a game-changing skill shot champ bottom (blitz, for example), then you should be able to figure out whether you can afford to take a non-dash/blink/jump ADC. The part about positioning is really not champion specific, but it can be boosted by having one of these 6 ADC's that can adjust easily if they make a mistake, or the enemy makes a great play.

EndlessReign 10-10-2012 12:44 PM

I still think that Ashe and Sivir are completely viable champs even though they may not have a dash/blink/jump.
Every AD carry has some sort of escape that can also be used to secure kills. Even Varus has a slow and bind and a long range poke. Its just a matter of knowing your champ well enough to survive many different team comps. Sivir gets bonus movement speed from her ult and passive plus she has a spell shield so she is a great carry for escapes it just may be a little harder to pull off then say Corki's Valkyrie escape. Ashe has a stun, 2 slows, and a hawk shot which allows her to one see the enemy coming and two stun them to escape if need be. (Although her arrow is better for initiating team fights) Or you can kite with slows. (shoot, back up repeat if necessary)

I don't know what elo you are playing ranked at, but I would also make sure that your basic laning strategies are polished as trouble with these early will lead to a more difficult mid/late game even if you feel like you are fed. Also if your teammates aren't using solid laning strategy there may be no help for you:
1. Start boots and three not doran's blade even if you are laning with soraka. Early movement speed is vital for last hitting and dodging harassment. Plus it can allow you to pursue to pick up kills.
2. Make sure you are last hitting minions but not at the cost of your health. (You may need more damage runes and masteries to last hit better.)
3. Is your support buying gp 10's and wards? (and placing the wards in good spots) If not you will have trouble no matter what Ad carry you are.
4. Do you know how to freeze a lane or push it? Can you farm under your tower? Do you run away from your tower or hold your ground when your opponents tower dive you?
5. Do you back early for at least one doran's blade or 2 rather than waiting and rushing a bf sword? Because Doran's blades add health which allow you to survive. Often times my full build for a ranked game is Berseker's, 2 dorans blades IE, BT, and phantom dancer. Not necessarily purchased in that order. I find 2 doran's blades early helps me to snowball more effectively than rushing a BT.
6. Should you buy a phage and then TF on your carry or just go straight for BT IE? This largely depends on the carry I find rushing TF on Ez is very effective. I think it would be on Corki too but never tried it.
7. What do you take with flash for summoner spells? Heal Ignite Cleanse? Check the enemy team comp and check out there CC also does you support offer you sustain or will you need heal to farm longer? Cleanse can win you games if the other team has a lot of cc.
8. When you harass your lane do you focus the support or the carry? Usually the carry does the most damage so you should focus them. Also, remember to bait the opposing support into blowing their cc. Very effective against Ali since he is slow moving. Also, never stand still to farm always move around so your opponent will have a harder time with skill shots.

The list goes on.. but I guess my point is any ranged AD carry can be successful if you know how to use them.

Maybe someone could follow this post up with some solid mid/late game strategy and tactics for AD carrys.

ExecutionerK 10-10-2012 01:03 PM

Qss is far better than banshee when you are facing Hecarim as you can just get out of the fear.

Banshee on the other hand, is better for Malphite or Ori.

In the end, IF YOU REALLY HAVE TO, You can build both, but normally one of each is enough

But from what you are saying, seems like Qss is better as you can just spell shield Malphite's ult

FaerellG 10-10-2012 02:10 PM

@Count Psiclone
My Elo is in the 1400 range. That game dropped me from 1450 to 1440 or so.

I did start boots +3
I backed once early for a Doran's, but gold constraints and timing caused me to follow up with a Pickaxe, then a BF sword and Vamp scepter next.
I finished my IE first, then worked on a Phantom Dancer before grabbing another BF and upgrading to Thirster.
We had been winning our fights pretty handily then, but major 5man mid pushes were going on now and I was getting dived on really hard then, so I built BV.

I kept up in farm and kills with the opposing AD, then got the tower and started to out-farm and out-score him in kills during mid-roaming phase. But he caught up by end game. Didn't really matter since he wasn't the one killing me. It was the malph and hecarim.

My support was Sona, and was doing great. They were warding well, but as usual, I grab a ward or two every time I back just to help out.

I know how to freeze and sivir is a pushing queen. I timed my pushes which is why I pulled ahead during laning and was able to score the turret first without getting ganked much.

I was sivir. I used to build TF on her, but I've switched to PD for the superior AS and MS which I felt was more important in this game.

My summoners were Ignite/Flash to compliment my Sona's Exhaust/Flash.

Lane opponents were Ez/Leona.

Regarding harass, it depends. usually it's whomever is closest. Doubly so with Sivir due to her short range. Or in the event of BB harass, whichever will take more damage (meaning fewer minions in the way). It also depends on the opponent. If it's a split-healer like Sona or Taric, I'll try to focus on 1 person. If it's a single target healer like Soraka, I'll try to split the damage so she can't heal everything.

@Ken
Yeah, they had ori, maph and Hecarim. I figured I would get BV cause it was effective against all 3 (comboed with my SS, I could block 2 of 3 then flash out when I had to). On the other hand, QSS was only effective on 1 of 3.

@Eledhan
Thanks for the notes. I've been needing to learn more about team comp and I've been practicing Ezreal and Tristana. I mean to pick up Corki soon as well.
In this situation, Ezreal was picked and my best ADC is Sivir. Instead of a dash/blink though she has spell shield which is conditionally stronger/weaker.

Hirumonogatari 10-11-2012 02:49 AM

if they had both hec and malph on the opposing team, i would personally have gone for LW rather than BT for your third big item. it's likely to deal more dps as you are likely to be hitting the tanks more than the squishies.

also, i've gathered that your team consists of you (sivir) and your support (sona), what are the other 3 on your team? if your team is not peeling for the ad carry, there really isnt much you can do about it.

Eledhan 10-11-2012 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSZHUNG (Hozzászólás 30112282)
i've gathered that your team consists of you (sivir) and your support (sona), what are the other 3 on your team? if your team is not peeling for the ad carry, there really isnt much you can do about it.

Yeah, pretty much this...

Which is another reason that you really need to have your own built-in kiting tools. Ashe and Varus are probably the only two viable non-dash picks for ADC in a non-premade, since you simply don't know how well you team will peel off dangerous targets. Some of that can be determined by the picks they make, but I've been in games where my Alistar jungler decided to be our initiator instead of letting our Leona support do it. Alistar is much better at keeping his carry safe, while leona is much better at starting fights.

Lesson learned? Unless you know the players on your team know how to peel properly (you don't in solo/duo ranked), it's best to have as many escape/kiting options as possible. ADC champs with dashes/kiting ability are your best bet here...

FaerellG 10-11-2012 09:47 AM

Good point about the LW. The armor pen would have helped me melt the tanks who were in range which would have softened them up so they didn't initiate...or would die if they initiated.

As for the rest of my team...they were sort of derping it up. We had a rengar, and our mid and jungle were unspectacular to the point where I don't remember them.

But yeah. Lesson learned: play a more dodgy ADC in ranked.

Mynt 10-11-2012 08:40 PM

You can't get initiated on, if you're in FoW. The enemy would prefer to use their ults on you. And every second you wait before showing yourself puts their initiators at a disadvantage. Eventually they'll be forced to blow their big cooldowns on your allies, which you can take as green light to appear on their screen.

It's your responsibility to play selfishly as ADC.

FaerellG 10-11-2012 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mynt (Hozzászólás 30135885)
You can't get initiated on, if you're in FoW. The enemy would prefer to use their ults on you. And every second you wait before showing yourself puts their initiators at a disadvantage. Eventually they'll be forced to blow their big cooldowns on your allies, which you can take as green light to appear on their screen.

It's your responsibility to play selfishly as ADC.

So the part of the problem with strat was that my team had inferior poke, so they would just get harassed out. But I guess that's another lesson learned. My team needs to either have initiation or poke. being inferior in both departments means that we lose teamfights.


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