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-   -   Will someone care to explain this weird metagame? (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2611056)

BetaGod 09-24-2012 09:42 PM

Will someone care to explain this weird metagame?
I am an ex DoTA player. I played in several leagues and groups, included HSL, Argentina ELITE, Prodota.ru, PDGG and Imperium League. I am also a sort of theory lover. That beign said, i must confess i really don't understand the current LOL metagame. I will also like to explain that i am NOT lvl 30, so i don't play competitive games yet. At least not ranked ones...

What the **** is a tank and why would you make him solo top? In DoTA, you would not make a melee hero solo a lane (Obvious disadventage against ranged dudes) unless he/she is built in some really efficient lane controlling skills, like low mp/cd harrash, orb walkers or scouting (and vision) *****ies.

Tank? Seriously? "Tank" role is the guy who takes all te damage, right? Well... Who the **** will focus all his attacks on the 8.5k HP Darius? "Tanks" have to MAKE enemies attack them, to distract their attentions from important team fight targets (Like carries). I know nobody really likes to compare, but in DoTA, there was only one hero using a skill that allowed him to get focused. The rest of the "tanks" would have to take Radiance (Sunfire like item, that deals ridicously ammounts of damage to enemies nearby. Really usefull if rushed) or another "Leave me alive and i will **** everything up" ability. Swain's ultimate comes to my mind.

Bare in mind that we actually replaced the "Tank" role with the "Initiator" role. One guy would jump in, grab the enemy carry or something, and take huge ammounts of damage while having BKB active (Black King Bar, makes you magic invulnerable for like 6 seconds). If the initiator dies, it is irrelevant. He/she distracted, disrupted or displaced the entire enemy team, focusing his/her ****ing up skills on the carry.

Okay, so, carries. What the ****? I understand the AD concept, since most of DoTA's carries were right-click auto attack mosnters if fed, or after core items. Carries would not shine until min 40 or so, if not.

Ap carry? Why would two people have the most important job in the game? There is a champion dying, who gets the kill? AD or AP carry? Same with creeps, though this can be easily avoided by setting up lanes propperly. AP carry should farm farm and farm or focus more on ganking? If he ganks instead of staying in lane killing creeps, he stops beign a traditional carry... Who will win you the game? AP or AD carry?

Oh, well... Jungling is way more easy in LOL, but i really don't get how to do it yet, i may need to watch more competitive replays. I will leave this point untouched, then!

Support, just one? WHY?! Supports were ultra important back in the DoTA days... You wouldn't use only one of them and they were ALWAYS top pick/bans, even first picksmost of the times. Trilane formation with two agressive supports and a late game physichal dps guy will always render victories if played correctly. What about roamer supports? I understand that the LOL's jungler takes much of this responsability, but it is kinda different, still. You guys never do 2-1-2 formations using Tank&Suport top, AP mid, Carry&Support bot? Why is inefficient?

Why is there so little game changing motivations? I ALWAYS see the Tank top, Jungle dude, Solo mid and Dual bot strat. It is very frustrating...

Why the dual goes bot? Is it for proximity to Dragon's camp?

Why Tank would not solo mid? It is a shorter lane and will be much easier to last hit there, whithout getting harrashed at all... You always picke the top lane considering the offensive posibilities of the champion per se? Almost all the top solos i watched have some sort of "blink strike" skill.

I miss the "semi-carry", the 2 or 3 supports and the über push strats from DoTA; but i also really want to get into this game competitively (dunno if that word actually exists, lol).

Anyone open for debate? How about explaining all this stuff? Thanks in advance :D

Amatzikahni 09-24-2012 10:36 PM

It's about getting farm. The jungle provides farm whereas the lanes only provide a static amount of farm determined by the creep spawn rate. AD scales much better lategame than AP, but since there are two types of damage, people need to build two types of resistances to mitigate them both, hence why you have one AP and one AD carry. The AP carry's abilities scale with their level (dealing more damage, lower cooldowns, etc.) so they want a solo lane to get more experience since XP is divided among all allies within range of the dying enemy. Creeps attack champions who attack enemy champions, so in most lanes people seek to avoid confrontations and focus on farm; champions who go top have a crazy amount of sustain and burst or burst prevention that allow them to be deadly even when attacking minions in melee range. You also have to be wary of ganks; pushing your lane is considered bad because it forces you to ward which costs gold. Since auto attacking champions forces the minions to attack you, that is a method of pushing which is why people only last hit. Also, most "tanks" at lower Elo games build straight tank because players don't know how to focus correctly, so players at higher Elo tend to build more DPS-oriented as a method of becoming deadly. Most teams only have one support because the AD carry has to last hit all the minions but there are 3 lanes and 1 jungle but 5 champs total—you have to stick the support somewhere, so protect the AD while he farms. You also need CC and disruptions so that your AD can deal damage; having four supports won't help when the AD gets chain stunned for 8+ seconds and deals 0 damage the whole time.

Scattered thoughts but I hope that answers most of your questions. You can add me in-game if you have more questions.

McNaulty 09-24-2012 10:51 PM

#1. If someone says in champ select "we need a tank" you should immediately ignore the rest of their advice.
#2. In Lol, most ranged champs have weaker stats than melle champs, and thus could not survive a 1v1 lane, especially with jungle ganks that are common toplane.
#3. AP Carries should farm lane and pressure side lanes depending on the champion. They are not a true carry in the DOTA sense, more of a midgame semi-carry, but if they get fed can win the game. (The same is true for some toplane champions).
#4. Junglers are basically a 2nd support, because the jungle has rubbish farm.

Shesocold 09-25-2012 08:16 PM

Ok I think I can explain it pretty well. I'm not sure how it is in DoTA but in League building very tanky is a strong build. as far as putting a melee solo top, there are certain champions that can sustain themselves through heal, shields, lifesteal, spellvamp etc. that allow them to survive whatever is thrown at them because of their bulk. AS for the tank inititiator comparision many of the good solo top champions have stuns and taunts that are commonly used against the enemy carry such as Shen's dash. AD vs. AP carry AP carries do go mid because of their ganking abilities but also because they are very exposed to ganks in that lane and since almost every AP carry has a stun or escape method it makes them safer in their lane rather than an AD carry. Also AD carry is usually more important because their damage is sustained because of not requiring skills with cooldowns. We only have one real support because supports are usually squishy which makes them easy gold and second they would have to lane with either the tank or AP mid. If they lane with the tank or AP mid that leaves them underleveled by absorbing some of that lane's exp allowing the other team's lane to grow to a higher level meaning their tank is tankier or their AP mid's spells are a higher level which underpowers the champions that are supposed to dominate mid game teamfights with their level advantage. Tank would not solo mid because he lacks an escape means besides flash to escape a gank and has weaker ganking potential than most AP carries. And yes the dual goes bot for proximity to the dragon camp sine it is more vulnerable during lane phase compared to baron. And as far as semi carries go that would most commonly be classified as a jungler or solo top that builds bulky but still buils some damage, such as building a maw of malmortis a frozen mallet an atma's impaler and a sunfire cape etc.
Lastly their is still plenty of adaptations out there to this meta, some are only good for certin situations however. An example of a successful non meta set up would be, excuse me for forgetting the tournament this happened, Moscow 5 vs Team solomid, arguably the 2 best teams in the world, in the match Moscow 5 picked Vladamir to trick the other team into thinking he was going to solo mid so that TSM would pick their AP mid and M5 could in turn counter it. The Vladamir was eventually sent solo top where he built a very suishy AP carry build and performed well throughout the game and their victory. Anyways I hope this help I kow this helped me when I started playing and my 2200 elo friend was showing me the ropes. :D

Shesocold 09-25-2012 08:19 PM


Originally Posted by Amatzikahni (Hozzászólás 29608336)
...AD scales much better lategame than AP...

Untrue actually AP scales much better late game but AD carries have a higher damage output because of their autoattacks.

ninjagear 09-25-2012 08:41 PM

1.) why is there an 'ap carry' mid?

mostly because the mage is an early source of damage that can help control the other lanes with ganks. also because of mid lanes proximity to the blue buff. lastly to help control dragon.

2.) why adc + support bot?

to control dragon.

3.) why bruiser top?

cause there is no other lane open to put a tank in to farm.

4.) why jungle?

cause babbys need a gank to help win a lane (or to avoid losing it).

5.) why is there no other viable meta games being played?

cause people are afraid to try something new when the current meta works fine for most players.

Agatio 09-25-2012 10:31 PM


Originally Posted by ninjagear (Hozzászólás 29632824)
cause babbys need a gank to help win a lane (or to avoid losing it).

Listen to yourself.

Anyways, @OP, Meta is decided(IIRC) by the bunches of people that watch the pros use new and unusual tactics and strategies that would make Ender proud, and are all like "Oh, hey, that's cool, let's try that." Soon, x people are all trying the same tactic, and faceroll, and it spreads.

Amatzikahni 09-25-2012 11:45 PM


Originally Posted by Shesocold (Hozzászólás 29632189)
Untrue actually AP scales much better late game but AD carries have a higher damage output because of their autoattacks.

If you must know, all AP gains are additive (except for Rabadon's Deathcap), but all AD/AS/Crit gains are multiplicative, so AD "scales" much better. AP seems to fall off lategame because AD becomes astronomically higher.

Selcopa 09-26-2012 12:29 AM

Hey welcome to LoL.

Let me assist you with some of the terms.

The term Tank isn't really used, we do refer to things as "tanky" for relative situation, the term Initiator doesn't work well either because many of those melee champions don't have great initation, we use the term Bruiser, which is a champion that has the ability to quickly close a gap, stick on a target, and then either kill the enemy ad carry or push them out of the fight completely.

Our AP carry is our magic or skill damage, they not only scale with levels, but also with gold, they peak earlier than AD carries due to their reliance on skills and their cooldowns. They freqently are also the primary source of initiation, combined with their burst, the goal is to take out a squishy champion, or cripple them to the point they can't contribute to a fight.

Also we use the blanket term "support" to define the champion who does not kill minions as their primary source of gold, all supports share the role as the primary source of map awareness, but their other roles can be things like initator, disruptor, healer, buffer and debuffer, depending on your team makeup your support will fill whatever roles are needed after your team picks.

Now for a little history of the meta.

Initially the AD carry would go mid, the AP would go top, and the bruiser would be with the support, Ashe was a very powerful AD carry due to her ability to fire a stun arrow to other lanes. The duo bot lane was to maintain as many players near dragon at all times, its common to gank mid or bot when you spot the enemy jungler top lane to force a 4v2 over dragon. Eventually the AP mid was moved to mid so they could have access to blue buff from either side.

While ranged champions initially have an edge on bruiser, the early aggression could be neutralized through jungle presence, and due to the lack of money early game there was minimal protection there, this meant that bruisers could catch up and be able to dominate the AD carry, beyond the ability of junglers to counter back.

Teams discovered a few things, #1 sustain supports were king and could keep a champion in lane for near forever. #2 was that bruisers scaled very well with levels. #3 AD Carries didn't really matter how many levels the AD carry had, the primary goal was to get an infinity edge and some attack speed to drop their targets, this meant placing them with a sustain support meant they could constantly farm and get their items as fast as possible.

This has been the primary meta for some time, lanes have gotten more aggressive as sustain has been taken away, but as a whole there hasn't been a vastly superior strategy, there are some instances that work, a bruiser+leona support has shown to beat adc+support pretty handedly, but can fall apart horribly when it doesn't work. It also runs into the problem that you need a place for the AD carry to safely farm, it can work but you have to deny the enemy ad carry more than your ad carry loses, and your ad carry has a very high chance to lose, so your bot lane must win quickly.

There has been some experimenting with lane swapping, constant lane swapping in game hasn't shown to yield a good response due to missing minions during transfers, there are some cases where starting a 2v1 top lane has provided favorable results, however these changes in strategy have side effefts and they haven't been fully explored, there are certain instances where it is known to be superior but unless one of those cases occurs most teams air on the safe side.

I do want to note that there are a couple cases where ap+support has shown to be very effective, soraka can provide large amounts of mana, enabling spam champions like cassiopeia and karthus, while taric has a hard stun that works with champions with skill stuns like brand or ahri. Its been expirmented with some, but nothing notorious in tournament play, it suffers from the fact that an AP carry scales well with levels and splitting exp inhibits this, the enemy will burst more in mid game, meaning you have to win the lane very hard or you will lose midgame.

Also keep in mind, as we are about to enter the world championships, teams will be bringing out their secret strategies that they feel are proven strong, while they aren't always meta changing, they usually nclude an aspect that the current standard meta doesn't have a good response to, and teams have to rush to figure out how to defend it.

ninjagear 09-26-2012 09:38 AM


Originally Posted by Selcopa (Hozzászólás 29637511)
...most teams air on the safe side...

the expressions is 'err on the safe side'

EDIT: or 'to err on the side of caution'

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