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-   -   AD Carry Discussion(and my pet peeve's, really) (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2584963)

Scarlette 09-16-2012 08:49 PM

AD Carry Discussion(and my pet peeve's, really)
 
(If I'm posting this in the wrong place, forgive me!)

Okay, so I may not have posted here, like ever, but I wanted to talk about the AD mindset, and what I typically see playing against other carries, or what I see my own carry is doing as a support.

Keep in mind, this is with my experience of over 3000 games, in the last 4 years, and not saying that I'm absolute awesome at this game, but I'm not inexperienced, and I probably DO know what I'm talking about.

In normal games, nobody usually gives a F*** but, I see several of my carries rushing Blood Thirster first item, after T2 boots, usually 'zerkers. I say that this approach is a BAD IDEA. Why? You get none of the survivability that you need early game when people jump on you, either from a jungle gank, or from that lane alone, and 'zerker boots aren't going to help you lifesteal that much if you don't have attack speed! As a support, nothing makes me more angry when I can punish a carry for being out of position(as leona, most of the time) and my carry dies, and I have to run away or get kills that should have been my carries. If my opponents have stuns, don't for the love of god, get 'zerkers. Additional attack speed doesn't do you any good if you're stunned the entire time, and get bursted, and lifesteal isn't going to help you when you're stunned.

Another thing. Not having any Magic resist or Armor even as an AD carry just screams out stupid to me. Mages can sometimes get away with this, because they have the crowd control necessary to keep people away from them(and do most of the damage, like annie), but AD carries rely on steady outputs of damage, which means being able to stay in range to continually do damage. I play my Ashe with 4.5 Movespeed quints, 15 armor pen, 13 flat armor, and 24 MR at 18. Why? Because with Ashe, it's all about positioning and kiting. If you get out of position, I can continually harass you with frost shot, and if you come back, I can slow you and run out. If I get ganked, flash and those movespeed quints helps. The same thing I think applies to a lot of the AD carries. Get in position to continually hit people, and be able to get out safely.

I also see people either *****ing or nothing at all about this particular subject: wards.

When I play any role in the game, I buy wards. Maybe not first, and maybe not as a priority, but I do get wards. I've seen my carry ***** at me for completing my philosopher stone and heart of gold instead of getting 20 bazillion wards. If my opponents are smart, they can get pink wards and completely negate any ward that I may place down, making regular wards in my inventory dead gold and unusable. Anybody else can get wards, and not just the AD carry. Since the support usually has no other source of income other than to wait it out or the occasional gank, it's pretty slow compared to farming minions, and continually buying wards is a waste of money. AD carries can help even just a little bit by buying wards every once in a while to help out their support and team with dragon vision and brush vision.

On the topic of summoner skills, I see heal on a great deal of carries as well. I don't get this. If you get ignited, your heal is useless to the amount of damage that I can put out. One example is: if I can jump on you with leona's leap, stun you, ignite you, and then you heal, that little amount is probably worthless, compared to an exhaust for the opposing carry. Going into late game, if you get caught, heal isn't going to do you much good versus a slow exaust, or ignite for additional damage and cutting down other people's lifesteal. The only application that I can see it being good for is for bait duels or bait tower dives, which don't happen if your opponent is smart, and ignites you, and by that time, you're already running again, because it was bait in the first place! I can't really say that pushing is a viable use of that summoner skill, because a health pot or a teleport are both much better in my opinion than heal.

TL;DR
Why do I see AD carries rushing BT first?

Why do I see AD carries playing with no resistances?

Why do I hear that supports are the ones that needs to buy wards?

Why do I see AD carries with heal?

(Oh, since I'm ranting, I might as well tell this story. For the love of god, don't first pick soraka to be mid in ranked. I said this to him, and I'll say it now, but that mid potential is WASTED. Yes, soraka has heals, but, if your jungler gets ganked, or needs help, your heals aren't going to do much if they're continually crowd controlled. People also aren't stupid enough to continually stand in star call either, so that offensive is garbage. Her silence range is much shorter than say, brand's pillar of fire, making her no mana costing harass useless. Soraka is a much better support for bot than in mid. -_- )

I'd like to hear your comments on what you think when you play AD carry, or support for said carry. Do you just don't give a **** to what your support does, and just farm? Or do you play aggressively because you want to zone out their AD carry? Etc, etc.

ArtDZ 09-16-2012 11:18 PM

Here are my opinions on it. As a AD carry my role is to farm/kill/generate enough gold to be a DPS machine later in the game. Going towards these goals I feel like the Meta makes sense.

BT gives a decent amount of damage and sustain from the bottom lane poke so I don't think its a bad idea to rush it if i'm doing well.

I generally play armor seals mres per level blues and I generally pick up a defense item piece later. Building tanky isn't the ranged AD carry's role. Generally I'll just take somethign to survive a burst from there AP mid.

As far as the bottom lane goes support should buy wards imo as well as jungle/top/mid. Many of the support heroes can support well without a large amount of gold

Heal is immensely powerful early game. Stronger then ignite. It honestly gets less useful later on but if it will save me from a gank or win me early fights its well worth the spot.

Also if they can get pink wards so can you it goes both ways. The wards aern't useless at all. If your paying attention and ward correctly its pretty near impossible for there jungler to take you unless tower diving.

Fat Mchugelarge 09-16-2012 11:30 PM

Dude, pros rush BT all the time.

FaerellG 09-16-2012 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarlette (Hozzászólás 29347213)
Why do I see AD carries rushing BT first?

BT, when farmed up, provides more raw AD than IE. It also grants life steal which is good for sustaining in lane if you don't have a healing support.
Some champs make better use of raw AD than the bonus crit damage from IE (Sivir mostly because of her Q). Some champions also have better lane clearing power to farm up that BT quickly.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarlette (Hozzászólás 29347213)
Why do I see AD carries playing with no resistances?

As an AD, I don't build defense unless I need to.
Need to means that my team isn't able to protect me properly. So if I can afford to go glass cannon, I will since damage is my job. Keeping myself alive is partly my job, but it's partly my team's job. If my team is good, that means I can do more damage and do good.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarlette (Hozzászólás 29347213)
Why do I hear that supports are the ones that needs to buy wards?

Everyone needs to buy wards. Supports are responsible for a lot of the early game warding. There's also the idea of "focus" and "multi-tasking". An AD has to focus on last hitting and positioning. A traditional passive support doesn't really have to focus too much on those things, so they can afford to pay more attention to the minimap and spend time warding. If you're laning with an aggressive support, you may want to split up the duty of warding more.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarlette (Hozzászólás 29347213)
Why do I see AD carries with heal?

It's for early game power/sustain. Some times, it's a good clutch for surviving ganks. The reason that the AD gets it and not the support is because it heals more for the user and there's the issue of control/coordination. The other player isn't always going to be in range and fast enough to react since they have their own champ to keep track of as well. But as the AD, you should be keeping meticulous track of your own HP and how much each hit is dealing to you so you know exactly when you need that heal.

Personally though, I've been running with Exhaust/Flash on my ADs and Supports. Exhaust with a coordinated lane partner will beat out a lot of things since it reduces their armor/mr as well as slows them and reduces their damage output. It's like a "debuff all" ability that allows you to win the lane engagements. It's also on a fairly short cooldown.

Cerberus136 09-17-2012 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarlette (Hozzászólás 29347213)
(If I'm posting this in the wrong place, forgive me!)
In normal games, nobody usually gives a F*** but, I see several of my carries rushing Blood Thirster first item, after T2 boots, usually 'zerkers. I say that this approach is a BAD IDEA. Why? You get none of the survivability that you need early game when people jump on you, either from a jungle gank, or from that lane alone,

In normal games? You're correct, it is a horrible idea for those reasons exactly. The reason people do it is because they see the pro's do it. Why do the pros do it? Because they play with other people in the 2k elo range and on their ranked teams. Why does this matter? Because it is very rare that you will be "jumped unawares" from a jungler bottom lane - this is why you have supports who ward their asses off. Good ADC's will go grab the golems or B and heal/buy if the lane is pushed too far with or without wards. This prevents the enemy jungler from getting any good ganks in from river/tri-bush.

With that said, playing passively like that doesn't make the need for more health/survivability as urgent. Now if I was in solo queue down in the 1k-1.5k elo - then the odds are a good ADC won't rush a BT because you don't know if you can trust the support enough or not. They might go double dorans + vamp scept or a Phage as it gives the survivability they need in the situations you state.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarlette (Hozzászólás 29347213)
Another thing. Not having any Magic resist or Armor even as an AD carry just screams out stupid to me.

I'm a culprit here. I think most of the time people just "want to do the most damage possible" more than anything. The don't realize just how important that 13 armor is until your 10 minutes in and that enemy Graves with ~ 50-70 armor compared to your 45ish is dominating you.

Scarlette 09-17-2012 02:52 AM

First off, thanks for the replies!
Now, down to discussion.

Quote:

BT gives a decent amount of damage and sustain from the bottom lane poke so I don't think its a bad idea to rush it if i'm doing well.

I generally play armor seals mres per level blues and I generally pick up a defense item piece later. Building tanky isn't the ranged AD carry's role. Generally I'll just take somethign to survive a burst from there AP mid.
Well, I agree with being damagy is the AD carry role, yes. But lifesteal doesn't give that much back to you with no attack speed. In most of my games, having that early bloodthirster didn't do much against having more Attack speed. If you can hit me once for 160 and lifesteal 20% of that, and I hit you twice for 100 in that time frame, I'll come out ahead, especially if I have higher health because of doran's blades or what have you. I still consider it a bad item to rush super early. I might get both the BF sword and a vamp scepter, but I'll keep them separate for other items.

And I don't ever build tanky, I'm just talking about runes and masteries. I run the runes I said earlier and 21/9/0, so I can start with boots and 3 health pots on ashe. Being able to get in and out is really advantageous. I'm remarking on this fact because in blind pick, a no resistance carry gets focused in bot lane, and usually can't survive to do any damage, which leaves me as the support, to either finish off the kills, which I can't, unless I'm playing tank supports, or running away. Taric + graves owned my corki + leona, because he couldn't valkryie away before he got killed and fell WAY behind. Now, it could have been the player himself, but he couldn't even farm without fear of getting stunned, and even with wards, I couldn't do much to protect him, and I think that if he would have gotten some resistances and health, instead of just sitting back trying to get BT, he would have had more success.

Quote:

As far as the bottom lane goes support should buy wards imo as well as jungle/top/mid. Many of the support heroes can support well without a large amount of gold
Yes, supports should grab wards. The thing is though, without additional income through those gp/10 items, minion farm, and ganks, the supports fall behind in gold advantage, and constantly buying wards isn't going to help YOU, the support, out. It'll help your carry farm more safely, but it could end up essentially having a 2v1, because you don't have the items to make enough of a presence in your lane. Which is why I buy wards as well as a carry, if I have the extra gold to relieve some pressure from my support.

Quote:

Heal is immensely powerful early game. Stronger then ignite. It honestly gets less useful later on but if it will save me from a gank or win me early fights its well worth the spot.
Heal is NOT powerful early game(against certain champs, I guess, but it's also playstyle). I'll cite my example games that I've done quite a few times: Say you're playing Ez with heal and I'm playing leona. I've lept(Zenith blade, her e skill), stunned and ignited all before you can press heal, because you're locked up. Now your skill is HALF as effective, and with leona's passive + carry damage, it's an easy kill, even with that taric stun on me.

Plus, even as you state, it gets less useful later on, where as say Exaust is always useful.
I don't like it because it's a "comeback" mechanic that if your opponent is anticipating it, or even just uses ignite, it's instantly less usefull, where as something like ignite and exaust don't really have 'counters' perse.

Quote:

Personally though, I've been running with Exhaust/Flash on my ADs and Supports. Exhaust with a coordinated lane partner will beat out a lot of things since it reduces their armor/mr as well as slows them and reduces their damage output. It's like a "debuff all" ability that allows you to win the lane engagements. It's also on a fairly short cooldown.
This. Or I use ignite, in the case I need damage, like when I play leona. Rarely do I use CV, because good wards and map awareness helps with this, and I don't really care for the other spells that supports use(TP, clarity, heal).

Quote:

Also if they can get pink wards so can you it goes both ways. The wards aern't useless at all. If your paying attention and ward correctly its pretty near impossible for there jungler to take you unless tower diving.
Well, yes, this is true. The thing is though, how much are you willing to gamble to place that ward down? Say you ward the brush and I pink it, and destroy it. Now you want to buy a pink ward to counter mine, but I can punish you for trying to place a ward down, and since you don't have as much map control anymore, there could be somebody waiting for you. If the lane isn't pushed(still laning phase), then you could easily get zoned out, because you can't extend out too far or risk getting put in a bad position. I'm saying it might be useless, because if they've built up a gold advantage, they can continue to buy those wards, and since I'm support, I can't, or I fall too far behind.

Quote:

Dude, pros rush BT all the time.
Wow, thanks for your super insight there. Makes me completely agree with you, JUST because pros do it. Thanks buddy!

Quote:

BT, when farmed up, provides more raw AD than IE. It also grants life steal which is good for sustaining in lane if you don't have a healing support.
Some champs make better use of raw AD than the bonus crit damage from IE (Sivir mostly because of her Q). Some champions also have better lane clearing power to farm up that BT quickly.
Well, I suppose. How many champs though can really utilize that raw AD? I'd rather have more of everything, attack speed, crit, armor, than just a bloodthirster...

Good point though.

Quote:

In normal games? You're correct, it is a horrible idea for those reasons exactly. The reason people do it is because they see the pro's do it. Why do the pros do it? Because they play with other people in the 2k elo range and on their ranked teams. Why does this matter? Because it is very rare that you will be "jumped unawares" from a jungler bottom lane - this is why you have supports who ward their asses off. Good ADC's will go grab the golems or B and heal/buy if the lane is pushed too far with or without wards. This prevents the enemy jungler from getting any good ganks in from river/tri-bush.

With that said, playing passively like that doesn't make the need for more health/survivability as urgent. Now if I was in solo queue down in the 1k-1.5k elo - then the odds are a good ADC won't rush a BT because you don't know if you can trust the support enough or not. They might go double dorans + vamp scept or a Phage as it gives the survivability they need in the situations you state.
I don't watch pros that often, so I guess I suck, lol. In any case, for the this, I want to reiterate my statement from above, and feel free to point out anything that I'm overlooking: If I can hit you twice for 100, and you hit me once for 160 and lifesteal 20% of that, I'm going to come out ahead. This is obviously not counting abilities, but just auto attacks. I still believe getting bloodthirster first is a bad idea, even if you're ahead.

Quote:

I'm a culprit here. I think most of the time people just "want to do the most damage possible" more than anything. The don't realize just how important that 13 armor is until your 10 minutes in and that enemy Graves with ~ 50-70 armor compared to your 45ish is dominating you.
I hate when people complain about getting nuked or getting owned by auto attack carries and I look at their items and they have no resistances at all, and haven't even built any defensive items. I don't care if you're the ad carry and need to do as much damage as possible; if you can't survive to do any dps, you're worthless as the carry!

Thanks for the replies, and if you have any counter arguments or pointing out different areas that I'm not thinking of, please feel free to do so!

ArtDZ 09-17-2012 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarlette (Hozzászólás 29355425)

Well, I agree with being damagy is the AD carry role, yes. But lifesteal doesn't give that much back to you with no attack speed. In most of my games, having that early bloodthirster didn't do much against having more Attack speed. If you can hit me once for 160 and lifesteal 20% of that, and I hit you twice for 100 in that time frame, I'll come out ahead, especially if I have higher health because of doran's blades or what have you. I still consider it a bad item to rush super early. I might get both the BF sword and a vamp scepter, but I'll keep them separate for other items.

And I don't ever build tanky, I'm just talking about runes and masteries. I run the runes I said earlier and 21/9/0, so I can start with boots and 3 health pots on ashe. Being able to get in and out is really advantageous. I'm remarking on this fact because in blind pick, a no resistance carry gets focused in bot lane, and usually can't survive to do any damage, which leaves me as the support, to either finish off the kills, which I can't, unless I'm playing tank supports, or running away. Taric + graves owned my corki + leona, because he couldn't valkryie away before he got killed and fell WAY behind. Now, it could have been the player himself, but he couldn't even farm without fear of getting stunned, and even with wards, I couldn't do much to protect him, and I think that if he would have gotten some resistances and health, instead of just sitting back trying to get BT, he would have had more success.

Yes, supports should grab wards. The thing is though, without additional income through those gp/10 items, minion farm, and ganks, the supports fall behind in gold advantage, and constantly buying wards isn't going to help YOU, the support, out. It'll help your carry farm more safely, but it could end up essentially having a 2v1, because you don't have the items to make enough of a presence in your lane. Which is why I buy wards as well as a carry, if I have the extra gold to relieve some pressure from my support.

Heal is NOT powerful early game(against certain champs, I guess, but it's also playstyle). I'll cite my example games that I've done quite a few times: Say you're playing Ez with heal and I'm playing leona. I've lept(Zenith blade, her e skill), stunned and ignited all before you can press heal, because you're locked up. Now your skill is HALF as effective, and with leona's passive + carry damage, it's an easy kill, even with that taric stun on me.

Plus, even as you state, it gets less useful later on, where as say Exaust is always useful.
I don't like it because it's a "comeback" mechanic that if your opponent is anticipating it, or even just uses ignite, it's instantly less usefull, where as something like ignite and exaust don't really have 'counters' perse.

I've never been harassed getting hit twice for 100 while i get one shot in. That just doesn't happen in lane. More likely if i get hit by harass i'll also get 5-10 last hits on a creep and trade 1 harass hit.

Armor and Mres runes are pretty standard. At high health i've never been bursted dead early game against say a flash stun exhaust by taric + a ignite from the other guy. As far as ashe goes I actually prefer higher mobility and just poke at them with volley until level 6 or jungler ganks.

I wouldn't want to be the corki leona side against taric and graves. Taric and Graves will pretty much win control of that lane and its pretty much up to the jungler/mid to help gank. That being said at times like these you do stuff like double doran's early on rather then BT.

The lane is never 2v1 just because my support does his job. I have no problem facing a team where there AD is weaker from warding and there support is slightly stronger from not warding?? I've never played with supports that complained about being pressured due to having to buy wards don't quite understand. The gold runes/masteries are enough for wards into gold/10 items. I don't expect support to be ward happy and light up both bushes and two gank paths earlygame or anything. ad warding can also amount to immense CS loss/dangerous scenarios. Lets say its a perfect world and your going to ward before your river ward goes down. If nothing happens i may simply lose a small amount of CS if my lane is pushed. If there jungler happens to come well i'll see it on the map so i won't die but may have to take a alternate route to avoid there bot pincering in a 3v2. More CS loss. Not to mention as i go ward my supports don't CS particularly well especially if melee. Just wasting that gold.

If lets say this leona stun scenario happens around level 5. Well simply put my heal at 50% heals me for 100 and my support for 100 (after your ignite) compared to the 150 damage over 5s of ignite. And yes that matters. Focusing down one guy is really more of a perfect scenario due to positioning. Taric can stun there AD as he walks up and i can just walk away easily. I can flash away if he flashes etc.. Also this entire landing stuns things is not even that easy. Usually Taric can't really land stuns on me unless im winning the lane and pushing them or if he flashes (in which case his AD is always behind).

Sereg Anfaug 09-17-2012 09:28 AM

FaerellG pretty much answers you here.

AD carries are, by the nature of their role, meant to build as much sustained DPS as possible. Their defence lies in positioning and the wards and protection and peel abilities of their teammates.

I don't usually go early BT(other then on Urgot where I don't actually build an IE) because I prefer going for an early IE. However, there's certainly an argument in favor of it, and I've seen it come out early in tournament games by professional AD carries, so obviously it works.

As far as resistances... the AD carry isn't supposed to be taking damage at all. As I mentioned above, positioning and teamwork is the key there. Again, with Urgot, I build differently, but Urgot is not a traditional AD carry.

With warding, it's not just the support - however, in bottom lane, it is. The AD carry needs to scale as quickly as possible, and has a lane partner whose entire purpose is to passively generate gold. There's no reason an AD carry with a halfway competent support should ever need to buy wards during laning.

Heal can often give you that edge you need to win early fights in bottom lane. As the only lane with consistently more then one champion, the heal is much more effective there then in any other lane, and can often be used to bait your lane opponents into overcommiting. It also has limited use in the early midgame to sustain teamfights, although it does fall of lategame. Cleanse is another common AD carry spell, although I have yet to learn to use it effectively, so I stick with heal.

Hope that helps answer some of your questions.

FaerellG 09-17-2012 10:08 AM

You're also right that a mix of AD, AS and Crit make for the highest DPS. This is why most AD champions go:
Boots +3 pots
BF sword rush (unless they need Doran's Blades for early laning)
Vamp Scepter
boots -> Zerker Greaves
BF sword -> IE

This gives you AS, Crit, AD, as well as life steal. It's a better mid-game set up than a rushed BT for the majority of AD carries.

But like I said, for some champs, the raw AD is just better.
Sivir is my main AD carry. The reason raw AD is better on her is because she can effectively Quad-hit if you time her abilities right. BB is 2 hits, then auto-attack and Ricochet to reset the auto attack. You don't need AS to get that damage, so you can afford to ignore AS for a bit. Additionally, her ultimate grants a huge AS boost.
compared to other AD carries, Sivir is more about burst damage. A solid double hit on her BB can shave off half the HP of a squishy opponent, and stacking AD is much more conducive to that early game style of harass and nuke.

So for Sivir, I often start Doran's Blade rather than boots. And I try to make my first purchase a BF sword boots and Vamp Scepter and rush a BT for crazy amounts of nuke with my BB.

Lord Puppy Fury 09-17-2012 11:25 AM

A Blood Thirster is a good first item if you're ahead and not dying so you can keep the stacks up. An Infinity Edge is a better item if you're behind and/or death prone for the guaranteed flat damage. For champions with a built in AS 'roid, they're also better off building damage early since they can buff their AS naturally. Moreover, if you have a Nunu on your team, you have the option of delaying AS items a bit because of his W.

As for counter warding, just because they destroyed your ward doesn't mean you can't ward. Ward your tri-brush. Ward their tri-brush. Ward further up the river. If you can see the jungler up top, you can sneak in and drop a ward at their red or blue camp. Based on where your ward was, you should have a general idea of where the enemy pink is so you just ward around.

To your point of items on a support, you actually don't need them. If you know what you're doing, abilities and being a body is enough. I'm going to use a jungle game as my example but since the jungler is effectively a different type of support the point is valid. One game, I jungled Cho'gath up to 3k+ gold with nothing but a Regrowth Pendant. In ganks, I didn't need to deal damage. I just needed to disrupt the enemy champion(s) enough for my lane to clean up. You can apply the same principle to a bot lane support. Leona doesn't need a Philo Stone to effectively dash in and stun for the carry to follow through. Her abilities and her presence are enough. Janna doesn't need items to poop whirlwinds. My point is, while GP10s are nice, not getting ganked is even nicer. If I'm ahead I will usually toss in for wards as a carry so my support can buy boots, but the hallmark of a support champ is being able to perform their job with little to no gold.


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