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-   Twisted Treeline (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/forumdisplay.php?f=49)
-   -   Why TT "turtling" is NOT broken. (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2412468)

Red October 07-29-2012 06:49 AM

Why TT "turtling" is NOT broken.
 
It seems rather popular to QQ about turtling on TT. Usually (and correct me if I'm wrong) the threads take one of two general routes:

1. "We pushed through inhibs, but the enemy team turtled, got a lucky ace, and won. Ergo TT is a broken map."

2.. "We pushed to the base, and ultimately won, but the enemy team's turtling delayed the process for some time. Ergo TT is a broken map."

Ok, cards on the table. In my humble opinion, these are both complete ****, and both for the same reason: until you destroy the nexus, you didn't win. Let me say that again: until you destroy the nexus and see that wonderful victory screen, YOU DID NOT WIN.

As in football (American version), until you cross into the end one, you did not score. There's a reason that area close to it is called the red zone--and "almost" doesn't get you through it. Or as in baseball, until you get strike three, it's not a strikeout. There is a reason strike two is far more common than strike three, and "almost" doesn't get that last pitch past the batter. "Almost" only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades (notice the absence of lol in that list).

Last point, and more of an afterthought: TT is not SR, and does not claim to be. What is game-winning on SR might not be on TT, and shouldn't necessarily be expected to be. Beach volleyball (2 people) is not played exactly the same as regular volleyball (6 people), and shouldn't be expected to be. If you're going to play TT, learn to deal with turtling. It can be beaten, and relatively easily if you know how. If you can't, and you lose to a turtling team, you didn't deserve to win.

To sum up: if you "deserve" to win, or if you've "already won," you'll see the victory screen. Until then, the game is not won. Period.

That is all. Peace and love fellow summoners!

Zan Vorez 07-29-2012 01:35 PM

Turtling is broken in that it completely negates the purpose of playing Twisted Treeline in the first place- smaller, fast paced, gank based games. There should never be a reason why a 3v3 game lasts as long, or longer, than the typical 5v5. If I wanted my games to last that long, then I'd play 5v5.

Zachyveng 07-29-2012 01:40 PM

If the enemy team is turtling then you took the inhib too soon. Just don't take the inhib unless you aced them or you can fight the remainder of their team on their nexus tower and win.

Zan Vorez 07-29-2012 01:48 PM

Yes, I'm pretty sure most of us realize that is the primary way to prevent turtling, but the point here is that we shouldn't have to REFRAIN from pushing on a map that is specifically designed for shorter games.

Zachyveng 07-29-2012 01:52 PM

Heh if you're aware of the way to prevent it, why is it still a problem? Just because it is designed for shorter games doesn't mean people can't prolong it if they so choose. Deny them this option and...BOOM shorter games. Problem solved.

Eryn 07-29-2012 01:53 PM

You know, in higher level 5v5 play often the bottom towers on the map won't be pushed for the following reasons:

1) You don't push the bottom tower so it is easier for your AD carry to farm (Because their minion wave won't push so far).
2) You don't push the bottom tower so it is harder for the other teams AD carry to farm. (Because their minion wave is further from their base).

It's the same deal in 3v3, only difference is that it has a larger impact on a smaller base when you push the inhibitor. There is no 'broken' map design or 'broken' strategy to it.

Meshly 07-29-2012 04:15 PM

Isn't turtling just another form of strategy?

Koldheartedjsp 07-29-2012 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E1C (Hozzászólás 27565317)
You know, in higher level 5v5 play often the bottom towers on the map won't be pushed for the following reasons:

1) You don't push the bottom tower so it is easier for your AD carry to farm (Because their minion wave won't push so far).
2) You don't push the bottom tower so it is harder for the other teams AD carry to farm. (Because their minion wave is further from their base).

It's the same deal in 3v3, only difference is that it has a larger impact on a smaller base when you push the inhibitor. There is no 'broken' map design or 'broken' strategy to it.

excellent point

The good teams on 5s prolong that first tower for as long as possible, or if they can get at least two of them. For those 2 reaasons EXACTLY. If you down the tower in the first 10 minutes (i wait as long as possible), you are FORCING yourself to over extend incredibly hard, and risk a jungler gank, also making it incredibly difficult to deny the opposing carry/mid/top.

the purpose of the game is to push down towers, yet EVEN IN 5s you see the great teams NOT pushing down towers for as long as they can

Zan Vorez 07-29-2012 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E1C (Hozzászólás 27565317)
There is no 'broken' map design or 'broken' strategy to it.

Blue laser? Look, I love turtling and making a come back as much as the next guy, but if you guys can't realize that this is not the design Riot had in mind when they made this map, then you're not being very realistic. 3v3 was not intended to be a smaller version of 5v5, with long game times and heavily strategic gameplay based around turtling and pushing at proper times. Much like how dominion's strategy is to control effectively a majority of points, TT is meant for quick gameplay with ganks and pushing. If this weren't the case, then I'm not sure why the surrender timer is a full 5 minutes ahead of the SR one. (Just like how Dominion's surrender timer is even lower than TT, and the games are meant to be much faster even than that)

The way I see it, destroying an inhib in SR only serves to help you, whereas in TT it pretty much spells out defeat if you do it too soon. The way the spawn turrets and fountain are set up, it's pretty easy to see why turtling has become such a beloved strategy... but again, it's not what Riot had in mind when they designed it. Instead of relying on actualy early game skill, players can essentially let their base be partially destroyed in exchange for quick experience and gold within the safe confines of your base. Sure, you can harp on about how it's strategy all you like... but look at it this way; turtling is exactly the same as camping in FPS. Sure, it's strategy... but it's a a deplorable way to do things. It works... but it's not what the creators of Call of Duty had in mind when they created their games. Does that make sense?

DeutschMaster 07-29-2012 09:21 PM

No there is no problem with turtling, but the way that it can be done on twisted treeline is over the top.

In relation to how weak the super creeps are it's silly. You can pretty much three shot them with a moderately fed melee (not hard to do on the map. It WAS designed to be a quick match).

In relation to where the creeps path as apposed to where the agro-range towards the quarter mile god tower it's a bit silly.

Riot won't change it, because the vast majority of the player base plays 5's but: They put themselves in a pickle. If they put the summoner plate further away from the nexus it would make Trynd/Lee/Shen/anyone with a long dash or blink too strong due to backdooring potential.

If they swap the nexus/summoner plate location it would make Blitz extremely strong, or potentially make champs with long range blinks, and dashes able to run dash to the plate from every team fight.

It's impossible to balance the turtling on that map, because the bases are horizontal. If the summoner plate was smashed into a corner then MAYBE it wouldn't be a problem.


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