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-   -   A Different Kind of gp10 Item (and other Synergy ideas) (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2360873)

CupcakeTrap 07-15-2012 12:19 PM

A Different Kind of gp10 Item (and other Synergy ideas)
 
2 Attachment(s)
PLEASE SEE BELOW FOR EXPLANATIONS OF POLL OPTIONS.

This thread is devoted to discussing possible implementations of the Synergy mechanic, or other mechanics designed toward similar goals.

General disclaimer: The ideas presented here are generally not my own. I've taken ideas from the forums, tidied them up, concretized them, run some analyses, and attempted to articulate and resolve pro and con arguments. But I'm not pretending Athena bolted these ideas into my mind in the middle of the night.

It sucks having 4 goldstreams for 5 Champions, because one player is left out in the cold item-wise. That player doesn't get to really try out their personal spin on their Champion, and often just feels bad pressing their little nose to the glass while the other 4 Champions feast inside. (That's right, Riot, I'm cranking up the hyperbole-guilt. I want you all to imagine Supports as tiny kittens dressed up as Oliver Twist.)

It also sucks because it locks down lanecomp. If you duo-lane, the strongest strategic play is to give all the farm to one Champion. Teams avoid duo lanes as much as possible, but numbers mean they must have one. They put the burden on a Support player. Duo top is crazy, because it'd mean TWO Champions on your team without farm. Jungle is absolutely mandatory: not just a valid strategic play but the only viable play. Support is also absolutely mandatory: even people who are terrible at real Support skills (strategic CC, buff/debuff, mapvision, etc.) often get stuck playing Support because the economy mandates it. I think that's dumb, too: Riot should be unhappy that people end up playing games they don't want to play.

My proposed solution: create a new "Synergy" mechanic. Whenever an allied Champion kills a minion nearby, they get the full value of the minion and you get about half of the value. This means that a Carry who last-hits a minion is not stealing gold from their Support: they're helping their Support. That feels better, and also addresses the problems described above.


(POLL) New Support Mechanic: Synergy
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...php?p=26980594


If you haven't read that thread, please take a look. This thread here is about specific implementation options. For the sake of brevity, I am not repeating the list of nuances (like less gold where there are multiple Synergizers) or pro/con arguments.


Here are some implementation ideas. Let's talk about which ones seem best.


BASIC "SYNERGY" MECHANIC
Synergy applies automatically to everyone.

This is probably my favorite idea.

SYNERGY ITEM
(credit: Drahal)
You buy an item that gives you Synergy. I would price it either as a start item (400g) or as a first-buy gp10 (~800g). It would offer no stats other than this.

This is probably my second-favorite idea. gp10 items are a problem in that they can't really replace farm: they're way too back-loaded for that. The point of farm is that it's a big infusion of gold at the start. gp10 puts you in debt to start with. It only starts paying itself off when the lanephase is already over.

SYNERGY ITEM: ANTI-FARM VERSION
As the above. However, it also prevents you from receiving any gold at all when you last-hit a minion or jungle monster (other than Dragon or Baron). This would ensure that only the intended Champions buy it. (Although I wouldn't expect a last-hitter to blow 400-800g on a useless-to-them item anyway.)

SYNERGY MASTERY
If it were a Mastery, I'd want to place it deep in the Utility tree, and make it cost 4 points or so to reach full effect.

I'm skeptical about this, though: I wouldn't want to lock Supports into taking lots of Utility tree. The Utility tree kind of sucks, and it would run counter to the "increasing flexibility" goal.

I also feel like it would be odd to have a Mastery that new players couldn't access. Then again, I suppose at lower levels they're already a bit freer with their lanecomps, and both Champions can take last-hits (because one of them alone is just not going to manage to get many at all).

SYNERGY RUNES
Probably Quints, each of which add a third of the effect.

Personally, though, I don't like this one ... deprives Supports of rune flexibility, and hard to change on the fly (can't edit rune pages in pre-match).

ALTERNATE MASTERY
(credit: Called Top Lane)
Single-point Mastery right at the start of the Utility tree.
A pure tradeoff.
Taking this Mastery means you do not get gold for last-hitting. However, you passively get 15gp10. This provides a bit less than half of "normal" farm (80% CS for 15 minutes: 3000 gold).

It would shut off automatically at the 15-minute mark.

GLOBAL FARM
Here's a radical idea. Rework farming so that every minion (or jungle creep) kill grants 1/5 of the gold amount to each player. That means no more fighting over who "gets" to slay minions.

Currently: Ashe kills a 20g minion. Ashe gets 20g. Brand gets 0g. Caitlyn gets 0g. Darius gets 0g. Ezreal gets 0g.
With Global Farm: Ashe kills a 20g minion. Ashe gets 4g. Brand gets 4g. Caitlyn gets 4g. Darius gets 4g. Ezreal gets 4g.


I'll close with some graphs, showing that traditional gp10 Runes/Masteries/items are creatures entirely different in nature from farm. In short: Farm is a big surge of early-game gold. Synergy would also be a surge of early-game gold. Traditional gp10 RMi, in contrast, do not have a meaningful early-game impact. Indeed, depending on how you look at it, they arguably put you "in the red" during the same time period that Farm is making the other 4 rich. Farm lets you hit the teamfight phase with some core items that help you really shape the course of the game.

I've included a full 60-minute run for the sake of completeness. But focus on the first 20 minutes: that's when farm has its biggest impact. gp10 has no comparable effect until much, much later, when kills/assists/dragons/towers/barons have become a much larger source of gold.

CupcakeTrap 07-15-2012 12:29 PM

I'll try to add in some graphs and other visuals later.

Noric 07-15-2012 12:34 PM

Really don't like the global farm idea. Called top lane's mastery would probably work well in elos where people can't last hit(too well of course). Quints/mastery and item all seem like a decent vehicle for the mechanic.

Unfuse 07-15-2012 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaoil (Hozzászólás 26982586)
Really don't like the global farm idea. Called top lane's mastery would probably work well in elos where people can't last hit(too well of course). Quints/mastery and item all seem like a decent vehicle for the mechanic.

but that just adds more problems to the people who complain about supports and the goldstreams. ( i don't )

People are pigeonholed into playing the support role? No problem! Let's just pigeonhole them into buying an item / rune / mastery instead!

Also, the whole 'preventing last hitting gold' on some is a bad idea. What if the carry isn't around? What if they couldn't get it? What if both people at bot are smart enough to realize both of these?

I would prefer a localized gold spread, where it's split / shared / given fully / whatever balance works to people around dieing minions. With or without someone actually killing it. That would remove power creep almost completely, and keep an aggressive, high paced environment.

CupcakeTrap 07-15-2012 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unfuse (Hozzászólás 26983001)
I would prefer a localized gold spread, where it's split / shared / given fully / whatever balance works to people around dieing minions. With or without someone actually killing it. That would remove power creep almost completely, and keep an aggressive, high paced environment.

Do you mean removing last-hitting entirely? That does seem pretty radical.

As to pigeonholing: I'd push back against that. This would be a ticket out of that pigeonhole. With a Synergy item (or Mastery, or whatever), you can play a much wider range of Champions than just "Traditional Supports", and you can go wherever you please.

Unfuse 07-15-2012 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CupcakeTrap (Hozzászólás 26983518)
Do you mean removing last-hitting entirely? That does seem pretty radical.

As to pigeonholing: I'd push back against that. This would be a ticket out of that pigeonhole. With a Synergy item (or Mastery, or whatever), you can play a much wider range of Champions than just "Traditional Supports", and you can go wherever you please.

you can already play any champion you want support - the gp5 items allow for that.

CupcakeTrap 07-15-2012 01:16 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Unfuse (Hozzászólás 26983705)
you can already play any champion you want support - the gp5 items allow for that.

I respectfully disagree there. gp10 provides gold, but not in a manner analogous to farm. Specifically, farm is heavily front-loaded (a big surge of gold at the start) while gp10 puts you in debt during that early-game lanephase timeframe and then gradually trickles gold in over the next 60 minutes.

Farm lets you hit the teamfight phase with some serious core items. gp10 does not.

Unfuse 07-15-2012 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CupcakeTrap (Hozzászólás 26983939)
I respectfully disagree there. gp10 provides gold, but not in a manner analogous to farm. Specifically, farm is heavily front-loaded (a big surge of gold at the start) while gp10 puts you in debt during that early-game lanephase timeframe and then gradually trickles gold in over the next 60 minutes.

Farm lets you hit the teamfight phase with some serious core items. gp10 does not.

Yes, I know that. 'Supports' are always going to be lower on the gold chain. But that does nothing to counter my point. The 4 main players are still going to have their gold and items - supports just need to have a kit / auras / playstyle that helps those 4 succeed. Plenty of champions that aren't 'traditional' supports can do this just fine. See : lux, blitz... etc

edit: but of course you already knew about those kinds of supports. realized that sounded a bit condescending.

CupcakeTrap 07-15-2012 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unfuse (Hozzászólás 26984012)
Yes, I know that. 'Supports' are always going to be lower on the gold chain. But that does nothing to counter my point. The 4 main players are still going to have their gold and items - supports just need to have a kit / auras / playstyle that helps those 4 succeed. Plenty of champions that aren't 'traditional' supports can do this just fine. See : lux, blitz... etc

edit: but of course you already knew about those kinds of supports. realized that sounded a bit condescending.

No problem.

See, I think this would be great for those non-traditional Supports. 0 farm hurts them pretty badly. As the graphs illustrate, gp10 does not let them end lanephase with anything like the amount of gold a farmer has. (And those graphs aren't accounting for the very, very lucrative non-gp10 Runes and Masteries that Carries and the like can pick up.)

It's true that if everyone stopped doing gold-generating stuff at the 20-minute mark and waited until 40:00, a gp10-stacker could be in a similar position. But that's not really how it works. And at any rate, by 40:00, the game is probably either over or getting close to over.

In other words: right now, "Traditional Supports" have a really strong edge over non-trads. This would give those non-trads a bit more of a chance. Riot might even be willing to buff traditional Supports up a bit to compensate. Right now, it seems like they're just kicking the dog.

sephra 07-15-2012 01:37 PM

another player who doesnt like supporting. but doesnt realize that supports impact on game is so huge.

same person = the same person who doesnt ever buy wards and oracles. or maybe does 1 ward every 10 mins lol


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