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-   -   RIOT PLZ. Orianna "buff" is more of a nerf (MATH ITT) (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2314708)

Haha same YOLO 07-03-2012 12:21 PM

RIOT PLZ. Orianna "buff" is more of a nerf (MATH ITT)
 
UPDATE - Shortened main post to take out points that have been addressed/discussed - should help live team get an easier understanding of many of our grievances - IN THE END, my opinion is that Q should be restored to what it was (maybe even keep the CD reduction - a dream more than a realistic desire) and leave it at that. All the other changes are acceptable. Well and the ult nerf that should be changed too.

The change is a nerf in terms of skill cap for the champion (facilitating dumbed-down play) and a nerf in early game and late game damage for the champ. Unless she is able to land EACH additional Q accurately (which makes it harder given they're skillshots on a 1.8s CD with 40% CDR and have had their speed reduced) and hit W on the *enemy* for damage, she will be doing less damage. Forcing W into a damage role and moving Q to simply be a ball positioning role (which wasn't an issue given that Q had less than half the CD of W, and you could shield people to continue moving the ball) means less flexibility and creativity with the character - DUMBING IT DOWN and nerfing it, reducing the number of viable skill and item build orders - homogenizing the champ - and raising the opportunity cost of using W for anything but damage. E is a very situational damaging ability, which is why Q and W should be the main focuses for attack (atm E does better damage than Q if both pass through 1 minion during laning phase)


Math moved to my next post to keep topic post cleaner


TLDR: This patch nerfs Orianna. Her damage will be lower with this changeThis patch makes Orianna's burst worse. It makes it cost more mana and do less damage early on. This weakens her early game. She will need at least 6 seconds of constant fighting in most standard builds in order to do more damage with this change. It lessens her poking ability with Q (it now does E damage which is silly). Additionally, if it makes her more reliant on auto-attacks, then the whole idea of a distance caster is entirely defeated. You will have to land more abilities more frequently with her to do the same (actually, less damage for the first 6 seconds) This patch is a flexibility and creativity nerf, as well as damaging to her early game. You're making her pay more mana and have WAY less flexibility than she had before the patch.

Riot, what are your "plans" for this champion because honestly the direction you're bringing Orianna is "you have to build chalice, you have to go W first, and you have to play a certain way" instead of allowing her to be built Q, W, or E first depending on what you wanted, and building around Doran's, Chalice, or RoA depending on what you felt was the best item (or other items, though mana was already an issue).




Edit: Also, I realize a red will come in here and say that it will make the champ more user friendly, but that's wrong. The bigger ratio on W will make people think that is better than Q early game (where you don't have much AP) and they will be mana starved all early game (her weak stage). Honestly the only change that should have been done to Orianna was the GCD change and left everything else the same (and the ult thing as a QoL improvement for people who don't know how to control the ball).

Edit: Now I have to decide if I want to blow W ahead of enemies for the additional slow or on them for the damage. It's a much more important decision since it is the majority of Ori's

Edit: Poking around with Q and using W+E for utility around teamfights was a valid way of fighting Orianna (just one of many examples). However, this becomes less tenable with the damage nerfs

Edit: The GCD changes are great, and they make her feel snappier. Becoming very dependent on W for damage meant far more homogenization. So what we feel happened was you messed up a bit on ratios/damage changes without figuring how it would affect each Ori's individual playstyle (which was broad base of playstyles - which made her even more fun).

Edit: Also people, the buff to her E range isn't going to increase her damage. The auto-attack damage is less important late game compared to everything else because her whole kit revolves around her moving around and remaining at DISTANCE from the enemy (aka out of AA distance) and is something that should have A) not been changed and B) not been a factor in the other moves being changed.

Edit: A major issue with this change is it makes W, as I said, too busy. I have to use it for damage, a buff, and a debuff. I have no other options for damage or a debuff aside from my ult. Q does laughable damage (as does E's damage). Auto attacking defeats the purpose of Orianna late game (the AA buff was for early game, I 100% admit that) in many teamfights - it still happens though.

Edit: Honestly, the only way you will be doing more damage than old Orianna is if 2+ people stand in your W each time you use it off CD for damage, or be in combat for 6+ seconds. And even that is unlikely (the latter being likely but longer fights you don't always get to use your abilities on CD).

Edit: Realized I didn't say this in this specific form - the opportunity cost of W has gone way up with this change. It "costs" you a lot more to not use it for damage, unfortunately. This really makes her so much less flexible in teamfights and is a sad change. Also changes how she levels up and how she builds

Edit: Important changes this patch
Slower missile speed.
Less Q damage.
More dependence on ONE ability for damage (W).
Cast time for Ult went up

Damage remained the same across the board aside from AAs, which have been nerfed at higer AP (but to be fair are better early game). Q is weaker given a lower base damage.

Her buffs are.... lower Q CD (at same mana), lower GCD (which doesn't matter *as much* due to a slower ball travel speed, but is still a great QoL improvement), and higher AA damage at lower levels.

Edit: I appreciate the continued discussion. At the moment I feel like I have to wait for W to be off CD to do anything. I never felt like I was "waiting" for CDs as Orianna before this change (aside from my ult). Q feels like it does laughable damage.

Edit: Opinions
The changes were unasked for
The changes were unneeded - they only focused her into one role, instead of being built into multiple roles
The changes were masked as a buff, when in reality there was an almost parity in changes, with nerfs outnumbering buffs

The changes most of us think should be made:
Return Q's base damage (or only return 20, but keep the CD at 3 instead of 4), increase ratio by .1 (do no matter what)
Reduce W's ratio by .1 (so it's .5/.6 instead of .6/.5)

These two changes will not hurt her and not make her OP. Since the base damage went up, and AP isn't THAT high until later on in the game, the hit to Q won't be noticed in laning and you can go with Q/W/E and choose which one you want to max instead of being forced to W.

Increase the GCD to .25 (it was at .5) or even .3 (we really didn't ask for it), but return the Q ball speed, if not make it a tiny bit faster

AA changes are nice in the end but if it's considered a major balancing point many of us would rather have the old system back and see an increase in R/Q/W (maybe go back to the original system and keep Q at 3s? :3)

Finally, our ult just got smacked over the head HARD. People can keep attacking while being flung through the air... I think it's a bug. But idk.

The changes that REALLY should be moved:
A focus on ONE ability (W) for damage. This means that the opportunity cost of W has gone way up and if we use it for utility to start a fight or slow down enemies we have no damage. Return the .5 or .6 ratio (or just make Q and W both .6 - a simple man can dream)
Q ball speed nerf is huge. We can't catch runners as easily (which already wasn't easy but it required using W for a speed boost, since we have no option to use it as a speed boost because odds are they started running after getting hit by W, we don't have a speed boost or a slow, and our ball's small range won't catch them)
Q damage nerf was silly given our mana problems, doing so further homogenized builds

Want to make Orianna fine? Go back to the old ratios, or even switch the old W and Q ratios, gives us .25 to .3GCD and revert the R changes, as well as slow ball speed. Everyone would be happy with the slight quality of life change that is the GCD and that would be the only change.

Edit: Also I want to point out - The feeling of "good" is simply based on her GCD changes. They could have done that to her and changed NOTHING ELSE and people who played her would say she felt "amazing"

These changes homogenize her and make it so that only one build works, only one leveling path works, etc. etc.

That's making the game boring. If you gave just the GCD changes to pre-patch Orianna, people would have been saying Orianna is one of the most fun mids in the game, instead of "good" (which she already was)

Edit: Additionally, going "well just build chalice!" means:

Build Chalice. Build Catalyst into RoA next (I'm assuming? because without any +hp items you die fast), so then you have to get rabadon's and void staff to keep doing good damage.. and then oh would you look at that you only have 1 space for items. DO you want lich bane, zhonyas, or rylai's? Or even QSS/GA/some other survivability/utility item? You need more survivability but damage isn't that great, so lich bane is attractive. But you also kind of want CDR to really take advantage of a fast Q, don't you? So what about DFG....

Basically Orianna is being pigeonholed into a build. You have to build HP at some point, and you have to get Chalice otherwise you're oom. It's silly. And there's 0 reason to max Q anymore, 1, maybe 2 points max is worth it. This change has lessened a lot of Orianna's versatility.

Kahvan 07-03-2012 12:23 PM

bump

SunOfABeach 07-03-2012 12:27 PM

shut up and play her first before crying like everyone else.

I didnt see the reduced GCD in your calculations. Ah right, because that totally does not make her better , I see.

And Oriannas main item, Athenes gets buffed and her E range aswell, stop beeing a sissy.

LordGwaihir 07-03-2012 12:28 PM

Yea we can only hope the PBE stuff will change for the better before they go live...Orianna will be in an awkward state if they stay the same.

VeKtorWithAK 07-03-2012 12:29 PM

I just think Riot needs to get their **** together and reduce the mana cost to match the damage decrease. This is such an obvious balance issue but they do it all the time...

Just gonna take some damage... take some healing... take some defence... Oh **** your mana costs, the skill is balanced, who gives a **** if it costs a whole mana bar to cast a combo.... FUUUUU...

Such a simple thing and the changes would be ok IMO

Haha same YOLO 07-03-2012 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunOfABeach (Hozzászólás 26470263)
shut up and play her first before crying like everyone else.

It's called theory crafting. What I'm finding out is that I need to do more sustained damage to EQUAL the damage of Orianna could output before. Which is silly. They increased her sustained DPS but lessened her poke, increased her mana cost/damage done, and bunched even more stuff into her W (it's way too "busy" of a spell, enemy debuff, your own buff, your major damage dealer).

Orianna worked better before and would have been perfectly fine if they just changed the GCD ONLY and maybe did the auto-attack buff but even that wouldn't be necessary.

MATH:
Mathematical reasoning + info for the nerf:
Early game most Oriannas leveled Q for ability to poke at low mana costs (obviously they would change it up depending on match up). Orianna has a low mana pool early game and high mana costs with Q+W attacks. Q poke is a good harass for low mana on a decently low CD, especially at later levels with damage of 220 + .6 AP Ratio at only 50 mana.

Her W did 250 + .5 AP Ratio at 110 mana. It was double the cost but provided utility as well - a slow, or a speed up. The damage was nice late game.

Now her Q is 180 + .4AP with a potential cooldown of 3s (which only mathematically provides higher DPS than the old Q, but may not be the real CD), and her W is 250 + .7AP

So, some quick napkin math:

Old Orianna:
At 100 AP:
580 damage with a Q+W combo, plus 103 damage per second assuming Q and W are landed immediately upon CD reset

At 200 AP:
690 + 124/s

500AP:
1020 + 186/s

1000AP:
1570 + 288/s

New Orianna
At 100 AP:
540 + 109/s

At 200 AP:
650 + 130/s

500AP:
980 + 194/s

1000AP:
1530 + 298/s

Notice anything? At all levels, her Q+W poke has gone down by quite a bit. With 100AP, it has gone down by 40, with 200 it has gone down by 40, with 500 it has gone down by 40, and with 1000 it has gone down by 40. This makes perfect sense given the fact that Q was reduced by 40 but overall multiplicative effects of AP ratios remained the same.

The interesting number is the DPS after the initial poke. What this is saying is that the difference in DPS numbers is the number of seconds you must land ALL abilities on CD (within that time) to equal that DPS.

Old vs. New Orianna - Damage per second
100AP
Old - 103/s
New - 109/s

It will take ~6.5s of sustained combat of you landing all your abilities in order to do as much damage as Old Orianna

200AP
Old - 124/s
New - 130/s

6.5s again

500AP
Old - 186/s
New - 194/s

5s this time

1000AP
Old - 288/s
New - 298/s

4s now

However, within these 4 to 6.5 seconds it is assumed you will land all Qs RIGHT when it comes off cooldown, assuming it's a 3s CD, with 40% CDR it'll be 1.8s

Landing a Q once every 1.8s (or even every 2.55s with 15% CDR) is way more taxing than landing one every 2.4s or 3.4s with the same CDR. Realistically, it will be harder to accurately place the ball every 3s than every 4s and DPS will suffer because of that.

So, this turns Orianna from even less of a poker to even more of a "sustained" fighter. HOWEVER - mana costs to get a full combo have gone up. I'm spending 50 mana every 3s (with no CDR) instead of every 4, which means an average increase of mana usage. Plus since the 50 mana poke has its damage massively decreased, we have to poke with Q+W which costs more mana.

Basically, this patch SEEMED like a buff for Orianna, but instead it's a pretty bad nerf. The "fixes" to the auto attacks won't matter *greatly* and they will also make Orianna more reliant on auto-attacking which defeats the purpose of a massive leash range on her ball and how the abilities works.

Even assuming Q gets its mana cost reduced to 40, using the new Q 5 times will do ONLY 20 more base damage than the old Q five times, but will have a .2 lower ratio. So you will do less damage using the ability MORE at the same cost.

Now, a Q->W combo will do more damage OVER TIME, but it will do more damage over that time at a vastly more inefficient mana rate. I could do the math for this too, but basically Orianna's harass became even more mana inefficient.

UndreamtArcana 07-03-2012 12:29 PM

Bump for truth

ObscureClockwork 07-03-2012 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunOfABeach (Hozzászólás 26470263)
shut up and play her first before crying like everyone else.

I didnt see the reduced GCD in your calculations. Ah right, because that totally does not make her better , I see.

And Oriannas main item, Athenes gets buffed and her E range aswell, stop beeing a sissy.

or realize that the reduced GCD doesn't affect the math?
also realize atene's isnt orianna's main item
Also realize some of us have tested out the changes in PBE
Also realize that E range increase doesn't have much to do with this math either?

Haha same YOLO 07-03-2012 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunOfABeach (Hozzászólás 26470263)
shut up and play her first before crying like everyone else.

I didnt see the reduced GCD in your calculations. Ah right, because that totally does not make her better , I see.

And Oriannas main item, Athenes gets buffed and her E range aswell, stop beeing a sissy.

The GCD "buff" is hard to calculate for DPS because why would I have not been able to hit people with those abilities before? All this does is lower the skill floor, not realistic DPS

Also, Athene's/Chalice is not Orianna's main item. It's not even that good compared to other items.

Ysdrae 07-03-2012 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ObscureClockwork (Hozzászólás 26470385)
or realize that the reduced GCD doesn't affect the math?
also realize atene's isnt orianna's main item
Also realize some of us have tested out the changes in PBE
Also realize that E range increase doesn't have much to do with this math either?

I would argue the E change is an indirect increase in damage.

E does decent damage when it passes through enemies. And now it's easier to work with.


Also, GCD reduction isn't a direct damage buff either, however it allows you more time to work with auto attacks while **** is on cooldown.


Don't be so condescending; Yes, flat math shows it is a slight damage nerf. However, if you factor in her AoE damage went up with the buff to W, there's so many other scenarios that require math to prove whether or not this is a good or bad thing.


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