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-   -   AP Koggie: Semi-viable, or hopeless pipe dream? (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2065721)

Degnared 04-27-2012 07:14 AM

AP Koggie: Semi-viable, or hopeless pipe dream?
First, to make the point of this post absolutely clear: I'm an NOT claiming that AP Kog is some super secret tech that will wreck people and take Dominion by storm. I'm just looking to do something quirky and fun, and I want to make it work. Kog is one of my favorite champs. We all know that AD and AS/onhit builds work, but I want to explore the red-headed step child of Kog builds. At the same time, if you feel that there's a reason why this cannot possibly work, then let it rip.

The concept: All out glass build. Your best defense is your range. If someone jumps on you, you will die, sorry. I have to recommend draft-only, because a surprise Kass/Leblanc will ruin your day.

Proposed skill order: R > E > Q > W

Summoner spells: Ghost/Revive (???) I can see a good argument for clairvoyance, here.

Proposed Runes and Masteries: 21/0/9, MS Quints, MPen Reds, Mana regen/level seals (because hp/lvl won't save you), and AP/level blues

Proposed items: Tear + boots -> Deathcap -> AA Staff x4 (Four AA staves? This is the best way to be able to spam your ult, and it gives more AP than any other build to boot. Do you think I should consider CDR? Throwing a Morello's into the mix might not be a bad idea). Boots: Mobility or Sorc shoes?

Play style:

Bot lane. You should be able to stalemate anyone with sustain, or slowly wear down people without sustain. I can see AP Kog being a good counter pick to bot lane AP champs. You're probably going to have a rough time until level 11, I don't really see a way around that. However, you won't be useless: leveling E first, you should be able to clear caster minions with one puke carpet and one ult. Play passively until you can pour on the pain with your ult. If they try to rush you, E + Q will do a shocking amount of damage, but mostly you just want to run away. Late game, you can kill minions halfway into the lane from your turret. KEEP AN EYE ON THE MAP! If you think you might get ganked, run back to your ramp, your turret is NOT safe (AP Kog will die if they so much as contemplate diving you 2v1). You can defend your turret indefinitely against 2 people by just dropping an ult every time they start to cap. AP Kog's vulnerability to ganks will be your biggest problem. I really don't know if being bot from the start is viable: your early game might simply be too weak. The few bot-from-the-start games I've played with AP Kog suggests that it works, but my opponents weren't too gank happy in those games (and against good players they should be ganking you a loPt. It might be best to start top, then switch to bot at level 11. Inform your team! This will work best if you swap with an AD champ, to screw with the enemy bot laner's build.

Top Lane. Think Lux or Ziggs, but even more so. Stay out of sight. CV could be very helpful in keeping you alive. For the love of everything, don't camp in top bush: if you get surrounded, you will die. Wait for them to engage top, then start dropping artillery. The reason I think that mobility boots might be a good idea is because you can wait near speed buff, and drop a puke carpet and run away if they come after you. If they switch focus to mid, fall back to ramp and defend the tower with your ult.

Think of E and Q as defenses of last resort (or a way to explode squishies that get too close to a bush you're hiding in). Autoattacks are obviously not going to be your focus, but a late game Bio-Arcane Barrage auto will do something like 15% (6% base, pus it scales at 1% per 100 AP, I believe) of max health.

Just to reiterate a point I made earlier, people with poor map awareness need not apply. You will die a lot unless you're on top of where your opponents might be.

Thoughts? I've had success with this build in the past, but it is extremely gimmicky. Are there any major weak spots that you think will prove too difficult to overcome?

Aparkhurst 04-27-2012 07:19 AM

I can confirm that stacking archangel staves is fun and effective for AP Kog.
Also I like R>E>W>Q

GrignardTS 04-27-2012 07:20 AM

I've seen some AP Kog do well. Their man niche was running around in the jungle popping people with R and jumping in team fights when it was safe and some CDs were blown.

Because of this, you really need beef in your front line if you're going to play him. Not just tankydeeps, but more towards an actual tank (Jarvan or Mumu).

And you should consider CDR and Chalice. Especially with the new item coming out.

Actually, in light of that I think I just convinced myself to play him as well. That new item will be amazing on AP Kog.

Degnared 04-27-2012 07:26 AM

AH! I forgot about the Chalice upgrade. Oh, this is going to be fun... How much AP is it going to give? A big issue with AP Kog is his scaling. You really need a boatload of AP to be effective.

GrignardTS 04-27-2012 07:29 AM


Originally Posted by Degnared (Hozzászólás 23679874)
AH! I forgot about the Chalice upgrade. Oh, this is going to be fun... How much AP is it going to give? A big issue with AP Kog is his scaling. You really need a boatload of AP to be effective.

New Item:
Athene's Unholy Grail
Item Cost: 2950
Recipe Cost: 500
+80 Ability Power +40 Magic Resist +15 Mana Regen per 5 seconds +15% Cooldown Reduction Passive: Restores 12% of your max Mana on Kill or Assist. UNIQUE Passive: Increases your Mana Regen by 1% per 1% Mana you are missing. Does not stack with Chalice of Harmony.
Components: Fiendish Codex + Chalice of Harmony + Recipe (500).

I'd honestly just build this over AA Staff. Maybe still build tear.

Degnared 04-27-2012 07:44 AM

Is that CDR not unique? Dubbya tee eff?

(That doesn't mean I'm going to stack 'em. Maybe.)

Volandum 04-27-2012 08:02 AM

Your R damage is 400 + 0.5 AD + 0.3 AP. Forget scaling, a void staff is all the damage you need. Just build manatank - max your CDR with FH or the new chalice thing. Get a manamune as your tear upgrade, it's cheaper and fills up faster. Run Garrison/Revive, you can murder people if they try to dive you.

konfetarius 04-27-2012 08:05 AM

If you want to do the most DPS with his ultimate, you get mpen and CDR. Relative to those 2 stats, AP is weak on his R (20 mpen is about 200 AP worth against most MR values). Also, you want 2k-3k mana.

That said, AP isn't bad on him because has three other abilities that scale with it, and given the cooldown, the AP ratio on his ultimate is actually pretty good (compare it to something like Zigg's Q that has quadruple the cooldown but only double the ratio).

As for new chalice, I am personally iffy about it. Normally I use Glacial, Rod of Ages, and Archangels to fill out my mana needs. I tend to reach 3k mana. Dropping Glacial shroud cuts into my DPS and survivability against AD damage which is more prevalent in dominion. Cutting Rod of Ages drops a large chunk of HP/Mana, which makes Chalice's benefits more of a wash (though the CDR might make it pull ahead not sure). Cutting Archangels, will have to see.

I agree with Vol, though I try to be more hybrid between tank and AP because I like converting his huge mana pool into AP (AP is not weak on Kog'Maw, just less efficient than other stats). Also, I'd have to check the math again, but I am pretty sure that Hunting Guise + Sorc Shoes are still very much worth it on his R even with Void Staff. True glass cannon, imo, only works when your opponents are channeling the essence of derp or in SR.

Also, AP Kog'Maw is basically cannon fodder until level 6 and mediocre support until level 11. He is just too reliant on his R level ups and getting a strong mana pool to be a true AP damage machine until later in the game.

Volandum 04-27-2012 08:17 AM

I build Odyn's rather than RoA, but it depends. Basically you're Kassadin but trade out mobility for range and insane aoe dps - it's around 4 times what Kassadin can put out, and beats out kassadin dps wise even if he can get 10 stacks on riftwalk.

Konfetarius is right: you do get a lot of damage with flat MPen. Sorcs you can afford as you can keep decent distance from the fight, and guise is probably good too. I just go for the tank items fast.

If you're mostly hurting people with R though MMune gives you better scaling than AAS, is significantly cheaper and fills up faster.

Your early game is not bad - your W harass still hurts and if you level E whenever you can you do a lot of aoe at windmill fight. I would NOT send AP Kog bot, he doesn't need farm at all (glass cannon you come close to max damage with 4K of items - tear, void, ionians).

Degnared 04-27-2012 08:19 AM


Originally Posted by Volandum (Hozzászólás 23680563)
Your R damage is 400 + 0.5 AD + 0.3 AP. Forget scaling, a void staff is all the damage you need. Just build manatank - max your CDR with FH or the new chalice thing. Get a manamune as your tear upgrade, it's cheaper and fills up faster. Run Garrison/Revive, you can murder people if they try to dive you.

I won't knock that build, since I've never tried it. In fact, I think a void staff is an excellent suggestion, and I should have mentioned it in my original post. But I do want to dispel one myth about AP scaling: you can't just look at the ratio. Nunu's ult and his snowball both have very high ratios (1.0), but that doesn't mean you should stack AP on him. Instead, consider the AP ratio per second. Kog's ult has a base cooldown of 1 second at level 16. If you have 700 AP (very easily achievable with AA stacking), that's an added 210 damage per second before resists (assuming you hit each shot, of course. If you couldn't dodge it, this build would be completely broken). Yes, the AD ratio is higher, but AD is way more expensive than AP. So I really don't think that Manamune is a good idea. Yes, it makes your autattacks more useful, but you aren't strong enough to stand up in combat unless you invest heavily into tankiness, in which case your damage is going out the window anyway.

Hmm... this sort of makes me want to try some bizarre hybrid Kog'Maw build. Triforce + Manamune + New Chalice thingy + FH? Use Ult to proc triforce. It's only like 13,000 gold >_>

Edit: That last bit was a JOKE. Just being safe, since this is the internets, after all.

Edit 2: Missed the past two posts while I was typing. This clearly calls for some math. I'll post against when I have something more concrete.

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