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-   -   Help with Talon gameplay. (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2024998)

TDurden 04-15-2012 06:25 PM

Help with Talon gameplay.
 
I am new to the game (level 14 right now), and I saved IP since the first levels so I could buy Talon, I thought he looked pretty awesome, had cool skills and I like assassins.
Then I got to play him, and I got to say, I am a TERRIBLE Talon player.
I'm not even near to being a pro, but I didn't have problems with other champions, at least not as much as I have with him.

Now, I've seen videos, read guides and strategies, tried different builds (tried one with 2 BTs, one with BT + Trinity Force, one BT + Frozen Mallet etc, I tried all the most recommended builds), I tried leveling W first, then one time I tried leveling Q first, and I simply cannot kill anyone!!!
I know Talon is an Assassin, I know I need to gank, to wait for the opportunity, to go for the squishies.
I know that he plays best against AP carries and squishy casters in general, and I know I shouldn't go 1x1 against tanks/fighters and champions with too much armor or health.

I don't have runes, so I thought that should be the problem (I still think it is one of the problems, and I'm saving to buy T3 runes when they are available at level 20), but then I played custom game against bots, to see IF the runes were the real issue here.
I jumped a Bot Morgana from the bushes with 60% health and far from her tower, did my complete combo, even finished with ignite. She laughed at my face and killed me right there.
And she didn't die from the ignite, she actually had enough health to keep laning normally.

I played Wukong really well when he was free, even without runes. Sometimes I play Master Yi well too, if I have good enough teammates. Also without runes.


I really want to learn how to play him, I'm reading and watching all kinds of gameplays and guides about him, but I can't seem to do anywhere NEAR the damage I see some people doing with him on videos. I do laughable damage and he just doesnt seem really like an assassin to me. An assassin should be able to kill things, and this doesn't seem to be the case.
Some people say he's UP, some say he's OP (where?), some say he's fine the way he is, and there doesn't seem to be a consensus around this guy


So after this whole text, I must ask you
Is Talon that bad, or am I?

If I am doing doing something wrong, please tell me some new strategies, I tried everything I could except for the runes, and if I could play well with other champions without runes, this shouldn't be the main issue ( I think).

Please help.
Thanks in advance.

Milner93 04-15-2012 07:00 PM

Ok, i play talon a fair bit. I'm not absolutely pro, but i have had some VERY great games with him.

When I start, i buy boots 1 and 3 potions. As usual. Get your Rake (W) skill first.

Start off by farming normally. Try to stay in the lane as long as possible without having to go back. So kill minions, harass the enemy. Your W slows, so if they take a shot at you rake, then get back.

Try not to spam your skills as your mana will very quickly deplete and force you to go back. Next skill i get is Q. As it puts the bleeding effect on them. if they are low and sticking around, your Q and ignite will usually kill them.

When you have enough money, buy boots 2. I would recommend Mercury Treads, but i have been experimenting with Beserker greaves lately and i have found it quite good.

There is no set order i level up my skills in. I like to level my E though. When you use it, it silences and amplifies your damage to that champion.

I usually buy BT first. Other times i have gone Yomuus. Now until recently, i had never been using Youmuus active. When i finally had, i was finding i could quickly dispose of most enemies. Once you have enough money, go trinity force. And after that, if you are fed enough/farmed well, go frozen mallet. This works well with talons passive on extra damage to slowed characters and his Cutthroat and amplified damage.

When taking on a champion, it's always good to use all your skills. Otherwise you have no chance of killing them. With his ult, usually when an enemy sees you use it, they run back to their tower, so run in that direction so you can still hit them when they return to you.

I don't know if this has been much help but Talon is a great champion and I love playing him too. To know how much damage he can do, i once did 19-4-10 against a team of Magic champions, with no magic resist except the mercury treads. Not a good idea but it worked for me. Hope i have helped some :D

Duhizy 04-15-2012 07:17 PM

i play him top or mid if i can counter. start boots and pots and harass for free with rake when they go for a last hit then back off, next opportunity use cut throat then rake and walk away when you have time inbetween minion kills and they go for one, rinse and repeat until u have ult and ignite. In most situations ur better off just harassing with rake until its a sure kill with combo especially when ur against someone that can harass back like annie after your combo making the whole free damage pointless.know when to do wut and you will win most lanes unless they counter you.

TDurden 04-15-2012 08:21 PM

Thanks for the replies.

Guy, that's exactly the problem..I AM doing what you said, and it's not working.
You see, I use Talon's full burst on a squishy mage with 60% or less health, and I still don't kill them.
In fact, they are left with enough health to kill me in return, because my autoattack won't kill them, and I can't escape because I used my ult.
To me, this makes no sense, ANY assassin should be able to get the kill in the presented circumstance, if it's so hard to kill, then he's not an assassin, he's a weak fighter.
-.-

Milner93 04-15-2012 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDurden (Hozzászólás 23236421)
Thanks for the replies.

Guy, that's exactly the problem..I AM doing what you said, and it's not working.
You see, I use Talon's full burst on a squishy mage with 60% or less health, and I still don't kill them.
In fact, they are left with enough health to kill me in return, because my autoattack won't kill them, and I can't escape because I used my ult.
To me, this makes no sense, ANY assassin should be able to get the kill in the presented circumstance, if it's so hard to kill, then he's not an assassin, he's a weak fighter.
-.-

I don't know how, but your doing it wrong somehow. When you go in with E, do you activate Q before??

EDIT: Reading some other threads. BT may not be the best thing to buy first. Try Youmuu's or Trinity Force.

RedDeaD1337 04-15-2012 08:43 PM

Use you E, then autoattack, then Q, hit W and get outta there. Once you drop them low enough with this combo, do another one and then hit R and position yourself so that your blades hit the enemy. Be careful with your mana though, as running out of mana at the last second is reaaaally bad for you.

SkullMasteRgR 04-16-2012 01:03 AM

So i havent played Talon a whole lot, have played a lot assassin type chars tho. I was watching a stream the other day (TheOddone i think) and there was a friendly Talon. His build was yomus->bt->black cleaver-> guardian angel. He did his job well, meaning he killed the opponent veigar with one combo from full health. In addition, TheOddone said that Talon at his current state, in order to be effective NEEDS to be built glass cannon. this means that u build straight damage like the talon i mentioned did and not get any health or resistance items exept if the game drags really long. I hope i helped

Ayestes 04-16-2012 06:39 AM

Ideally you should go mid. To be completely honest, I had written a good chunk of information here about Talon that I thought you should know. However, everything I've learned is also written in this guide. It's likely you've read it already, but I wanted to point out how strongly I like this one.

http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=21068

Brutalizer + Bloodthirster is probably the most effective early game combination for any AD caster physical damage dealer such as Talon. That is what you should be aiming for early on.

Runes will make a large difference when playing an Assassin. Remember that. You simply do more damage then a person without runes - and to be frank in Solo Queue at moderate elo levels no one will be brining Armor runes to the mid lane. Basically you will just do ~30% more damage between level 1-9 to your target, which makes harassment crippling and kills much easier.

Above all, if you enjoy the champion... just keep playing him. Watching videos and streams of him will help you out - keep it up. Just remember that the runes will make a pretty big difference and it will take time to adjust to them even when you get them. Don't be dismayed and learn when it's effective to trade and when it's possible to get a kill. That takes experience. Assassins are usually either a huge hit or a huge miss in a game and you will lose a lot while learning one. As long you enjoy playing the character though, just keep at it.

Gingivitus 04-16-2012 06:56 AM

It seems you don't know when to go in. With Talon, you have to know what you are up against, know what you are capable of doing, and know what they are capable of doing.

Morgana has spell shield, so don't burst her until it goes down. Also, pay attention to your AD and their armor. The first thing I usually rush is an Avarice Blade (to get a little ahead on gold) and a Brutalizer(you are going to build into Yomu's anyway.) The armor pen on brutalizer works wonders on early game. And on early game, you are focusing more on pushing them out of lane rather than actually killing them. The more they have to back, the further ahead you get. THEN thats when you go in for kills.

I usually run ignite + flash for spells. Pro tip: once you use your flash, your ult cancels. Use that to get ahead of the enemy and burst them hard. And also remeber that your E is a silence, which gives you a little time to get out.

Talon is one of those champs that I bought and instantly regretted buying because I was SO bad with him...Honestly, once you figure out what you are doing hes possibly the most fun champ to play.

Also...ARMOR PEN. Get as much as you can (buy the crappy runes if you have too). Armor pen at early game basically ignores their armor completely early game, so at lvl 3 you can burst out ~30% of their health. Also, if you are going against a tanky AD, dont even try to do anything. Talon is basically an anti-mage/anti-carry.

Hope at least some of this helps out.

OriginalJack 04-16-2012 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gingivitus (Hozzászólás 23247820)
Morgana has spell shield, so don't burst her until it goes down. Also, pay attention to your AD and their armor. The first thing I usually rush is an Avarice Blade (to get a little ahead on gold) and a Brutalizer(you are going to build into Yomu's anyway.)

I'm not sure I really like this advice here.

Morg's shield will only stop the silence and the slow on your skills it doesn't stop any of the damage so if you can hit her when she has it down great but don't be afraid to jump her when she has it up.

Also, avarice blade? really? I usually don't finish the full Yomu's until I have both a BT and a TF done and maybe a LW too. You don't want to be sitting there auto attacking with talon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gingivitus (Hozzászólás 23247820)
Also...ARMOR PEN. Get as much as you can (buy the crappy runes if you have too). Armor pen at early game basically ignores their armor completely early game, so at lvl 3 you can burst out ~30% of their health. Also, if you are going against a tanky AD, dont even try to do anything. Talon is basically an anti-mage/anti-carry.

I run full ad runes on talon (reds and quints and I've been thinking about getting ad yellows but I haven't tried it yet) and I just build the brutalizer first this usually gives me enough apen to burst squishy people who usually don't build armor (like the ad/ap carry) and those should be your main targets anyway. Since talon's skills scale with AD I find this usually works out better. If you are still having trouble punching through their armor get a LW.

Oh also don't build frozen mallet, it costs way too much money for the damage it gives you.


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