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-   -   Orianna bottom lane (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1685679)

Nekrogen 01-07-2012 11:50 PM

Orianna bottom lane
 
My next serious project for now is making Orianna work for bottom lane and figuring out what her strengths/weaknesses are. The general consensus from my friends is that she is "a bad pick in general" and just drags the team down, but I'm entirely unconvinced as I've seen some pretty darn good Oris in my time. Her skillcap is much higher than anticipated and I think it's going to take several games to get used to her (I've only played 3 games bottom lane with her to date), but I wanted to get feedback from Orianna enthusiasts so that I can try a bunch of different things out while I experiment with my own ideas. Keep in mind this is for Orianna bottom lane, and I don't really want to go into her viability for top lane.

My Questions:
-What type of champion does she do best against? Worst against? Why? What are some examples?
-What do you aim for in a build? I'm not looking for a definitive build here, but some goals that should be accomplished in the build would be good to discuss (i.e. max CDR early, go hardcore AP, get survivability early, vamp, etc.).
-If you think that she's generally a bad pick, even bottom lane, why do you think so? Is it because you've never seen a good Orianna or that her kit just doesn't quite cut it? Please feel free to elaborate as this question interests me greatly.
-Which summoner spell would you think synergizes best with Orianna? Especially bottom lane.
-Any other tips? I usually center my runes and masteries around what I plan to build, so don't worry too much about these.

All feedback is welcome and I'll get back this when I've got some rest. I'm back from New Zealand so I'll be streaming my games again starting later today, and I would really appreciate any and all suggestions regarding my Orianna gameplay when I do. Hope everyone had a great holiday :)

larkhill 01-08-2012 12:15 AM

ok, so u wanna go ori bot lane. i'll ignore the reasons y this is a terrible idea. first off, lets see what u should build if she were viable at all.

first off, im a big supporter of promote simply for the fact that if the enemy has it and u dont, u lose bot lane early on. theres not much u can do about it unless u call for a gank and leave top at a disadvantage 3v4. ori doesnt have the dmg to handle a promoted minion, especially if its on something like a morgana/karthus who can push the lane early on VERY quickly.

as a 2nd spell, it depends on who ur up against. generally, i go for garrison. u cant really 1v1 anyone and if u get ganked, ur screwed. but with ur shield, slow and ult, u can keep someone trapped under ur point where they die to the tower very easily. other choices include ignite (against a healer like yorick or morg) or exhaust against a melee like tryn

orianna is very good at zoning people out and making them afraid to get near u and ur ball. for them to be afraid of ur ball, u need ur ball to actually do dmg. this means building a lot of ap. more ap than ur probably used to building if u played her on SR. basically, u build a lichbane build. start with a sheen and push the very first wave. if the enemy doesnt have promote, u use your promote o nthe very first wave and make sure to last hit well. then as soon as ur sure the wave will push to their point, recall and buy boots. from there, u build as needed.


hextech sweeper if ur up against a stealther like vayne, talon or shaco. its also great if u fear a lot of ganks. kindlegem is a great 3rd item (sheen and boots being the 1 and 2 respectively)

build straight ap. in a perfect situation, needlessly large rod is ur 4th item and take that into rabadons/hourglass. hourglass + garrison is a deadly combo

obviously, thornmail if ur up against an autoattacker like yi or xin and odyn's veil/FoN if u REALLY fear the mages (note, too many defensive items hurt ur dmg and u basically become useless)



i run 9/0/21 with cdr per lvl blues and buy cdr boots. boots + sweeper + masteries/runes max out ur cdr


now, as for y i dont like orianna bot, its her early game. she simply doesnt do enough dmg. she has no counter to a bot lane that can push a wave and heal. (yorick, morg, mord, nid, mao, tryn). she gets pushed back to her point almost as soon as she gets into lane. she also cant 1v1 anyone. she can poke/harass but she will very rarely actually kill someone 1v1. if she gets ganked or if someone initiates on her, what can she really do? if her ult isnt up, shes screwed.

orianna is the really the only champion in the game that's build specifically to zone people out. thats what she does and she does it well. but in dominion, she simply doesnt do enough dmg for people to be scared of her dmg so her zoneing doesnt work at all.

Stimuz 01-08-2012 01:02 AM

I've seen one very good Orianna at bot. I think she went a glass cannon build with DFG deathcap, can't recall if she got RoA also, maybe it was VS. Either case with full combo she was able to kill some targets from full health in a ball -> diss -> ult -> dfg hiding in a bush.

Definitely a strong champ but very few people can play her well as glass cannon which is where shes truly most effective.

Stimuz 01-08-2012 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larkhill (Hozzászólás 19446917)
now, as for y i dont like orianna bot, its her early game. she simply doesnt do enough dmg. she has no counter to a bot lane that can push a wave and heal. (yorick, morg, mord, nid, mao, tryn). she gets pushed back to her point almost as soon as she gets into lane. she also cant 1v1 anyone. she can poke/harass but she will very rarely actually kill someone 1v1. if she gets ganked or if someone initiates on her, what can she really do? if her ult isnt up, shes screwed.


The problem is not that she doesn't do enough damage, it's that to do enough damage you have to build extremely offensively which is very unforgiving vs assassins.

ricklessabandon 01-08-2012 01:59 AM

she needs a lot of ap to be effective, but she has severe mana issues when she's forced to spam her abilities (which she'll have to do if she doesn't want to lose her tower). early game she'll need to q+w+e to burst through a wave, and she'll need to do that every 15 seconds--even with catalyst that isn't really manageable.

once she gets enough ap to q+w minion waves (she can just fall back to retrieve the ball), life becomes much easier. she needs 180 mana every 15 seconds to use max rank q+w on each wave which equates to 60 mp5.
the good news is that if you're able to cs well in bot you should have your 'quality of life' items in no time, and you'll be a real threat in lane or in team fights.

generic advice:
-stack as much ap as possible
-find a way to manage her mana situation
-40% cdr is required.

Tiranui 01-08-2012 02:51 AM

Getting Orianna to work bot seems like a lot of hard work. Maybe you could try brand? :3c

DreamsOfGrandeur 01-08-2012 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ricklessabandon (Hozzászólás 19448491)
-stack as much ap as possible
-find a way to manage her mana situation
-40% cdr is required.

So... Tear of the Goddess + Morello's Evil Tome + Deathcap + Mana regen per level Seals + Ionian Boots + 21/0/9 masteries?

That's enough for lots of mana regen, mana, AP, and 39% CDR. 1% cd isn't a big deal.


It's a very squishy build though. No room for health at all. Might be able to fit a catalyst in early game, but seems very farm intensive, and Orianna isn't exactly on par with Malzahar or Anivia in that department.

Nunkuruji 01-08-2012 07:25 AM

Starting ToG on almost any champion gets them decimated by aggressive champs who take Prospector's or Catalyst.

Unless she's facing melee bot lane, which is unlikely - other than Riven (dat shield), she's typically forced to make a choice between damaging the wave, or damaging her opponent. Thus, she can do nothing more than force a stalemate.

I've played Hextech Gunblade on her (prior to nerf), which was pretty swanky to roll with, given her passive.

Promote isn't end-all-be-all. Some good bottom lane champions can mow them down quickly.

I think she probably excels at poke on incoming enemies to a defended windmill, and obviously her ult for teamfights that break out in that same area. Attaching shield and rolling into speed/snare on a typical melee initiator is also gravy support. Ult-Garrison-Snare combo is pretty nasty at a turret fight.

evilXkilla 01-08-2012 07:25 AM

My friends probably hate me for playing Ori so much in Dom. But they shut up every time I get a tripple or a quad.

Reason why Ori is percieved "weaker" in Dom is because of the way map is structured. It's extremely hard to anticipate where person you're trying to hit moves, and because of the movement time on the ball you simple have to anticipate enemy movements. If SR is a very linear map, you know the general direction they will run is towards their tower, they might try to juke a bit left or right but you still know what their goal is. In Dom, they can go up, down, left, right, it's VERY hard to land your ball.

This is why I don't play her as an AP nuker. But rather as an AP/AS nuker with surge. Point of the build is that she can keep up with the damage output of a carry and at the same time hace a 50MR/armor shield and a MS clutch buff which is also a slow to anyone who decides to jump on you. Oh and you can still reposition them if they flash back ontop of you. I level E-W-Q.

Bot lane is entirely different. I don't know if her auto attack range is long enough to hit minions with an ASGAP build to be viable. But I would try a mix of rabadons+nashors. Don't get into the wholemindset of "1hitting every wave". Bot laners just need to w) farm and 2) win the lane. You can win the lane by outpushing the opponent or you can kill them. Ori does exceptionally well with the second option. It's a lot safer one as well as you're not as open to ganks if you're pushing hard.

Tl;dr.
- Don't try to 1shot minion waves but actually last hit. A single q+w will do enough damage. Max W first.
- IMO full AP with a bit of AS goes a long way. She has great AP ratios and all of her skills scale with it.
- Ori naturally is not a high damage mage like cass or Ryze who can just get defensive items. Therefore by getting spell vamp you're hindering your damage output. Leave that for after your core build is done. Again, try to kill the opponent and don't let them sustain themselves.
- You can 1shot burst any squishy mage/carry bot lane once you have parks of raba and prospektors (witha mix of AP runes).
^ the above point really is what defines a great Ori player. When you KNOW you can go in for a kill because they're low enough because you've done it so much in the past. Everyone can stand back and farm as Ori but not every1 knows when to be aggressive/go in for the kill.

Oh and promote is NOT mandatory on Ori lol. It's a very situational pick and should only be picked against extreme pushers. I personally love love surge on her.

My $0.02 :D

FetisPuncher 01-08-2012 08:46 AM

Ori is a great toon all around in Dom, those who say otherwise just haven't been victim to an actually "good" Ori player. simple as that.

now my problem with Ori in dom, is the same as fids, the long cd. IIRC not so bad though (since i don't own her yet). But what i've found the be very effective for these caster toons is going Hybrid:

- Defensive boots, mercs or tabi
- Nashor's
- Guinsoo
- Triforce /lichbane (which ever floats your boat)
- Malady (if you go lichbane) / Wit's end (triforce)
- Fh (if you need it) or whatever else u feel might make you preform better

This build still gives the cd needed, bit of AP and AD allowing you to do sustained dmg and burst.

Essentially, you're gonna use Ori's balls to zone out, and AA minions to prevent the push. Any time the opposing going beyond the orbs ring(the outer ring closest to you) is when you start poking or running away depending on the champ's ability to close the gap.


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