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-   -   Playing for Personal Score Vs. Playing for Win (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1449639)

NetherGate 11-05-2011 03:15 AM

Playing for Personal Score Vs. Playing for Win
So how can you get a great score and be the cause of the team loss? Agro. You have agro dodgers or dumpers (score chasers), and agro pullers (team players). Ideally in a team playing for a win, team players will pull as much agro as they can handle to protect their team mates from getting ganked and to create opportunities for them to take turrets or get kills by outnumbering opponents. This is universal on the map. (No I dont play WOW, I dont know how it pertains to that specific game, but the concept has been around in many games for a long time).

(Let me just say that I am a true Vet as I have literally 2.6k wins or so amongst all modes and maps, etc. I never got a mega high elo or anything because I frequently play test different builds on different champs to expand my knowledge and come up with my own successful builds. This game has absolutely amazing depth of customization potential. Ive also played many many games with tried and true builds. I have time at my job, dont ask. Having grinded this many games out, I can tell you all with absolute certainty that playing for personal score and playing for win are two different things.)

I would first like to bring up the confusion going into games. Some players are totally focused on their personal score and some on the win, because it is apparently not clearly conveyed what the end goal of the game is. I would politely ask Riot to clearly define this to the lol community, because as it is, game after game, you have point chasers taking advantage of team players. The great amount of in game "raging" no doubt is caused by this. We just absolutely are not on the same page here.

Pulling agro as I define it, is when you can keep an opponent "occupied" through a close enough proximity to pose a potential threat. Attacking an opponent or opponents directly creates agro, kiting them creates agro, channeling a turret creates agro, do this with more than one opponent, as I said before, creating that player ratio advantage for your teammates. A good team has all players trying to do this 99% of the time, creating a "****ed if you do, ****ed if you dont" situation for the opposing team. All players simply applying as much constant pressure as they can individually handle is the best possible strategy there is in my opinion. Its the mother strategy, it shuts down the other ones by denying them the ability to get into position,.... ever.

This is a concept that unfortunately is not understood by most players. Its 5v5. You have a counterpart on the other team. An opposite player you are responsible for. Who that player is will vary throughout the game, but its simply a number of opponents, being ONE of them. This is the minumum you can do to pull your weight in agro for your team. This is because you yourself control one champ in a 5v5 game and if you are not keeping that player busy, your team is 4v5. Ever played with an afk in dom? I've won those, but its extremely rare. So you are simply expected to in someway keep your counterpart busy CONSTANTLY or as close to it as humanly possible. This protects your team mates, it protects your turrets, its everything.

If you are being aggressive enough to keep 2 opponents busy, that creates a 4v3 player ratio advantage on the other side of the map, thusly creating opportunities for your team mates to get kills, take turrets, etc. Even if you die doing so, if you were able to pull agro on 2 or more of them for long enough, the net gain for your team is positive. Of course your score looks bad, but you made your team mates scores go up, and probably took map control, that is IF you pulled agro long enough for the situation. Now, if you have agro dumpers on your team, that totally screws up the advantage you created, AND gets you killed excessively fast. You pose a threat in some way, while the agro dodger sits in the bushes WAITING for the opponent to target their team mate for easy points for themselves, and you have more agro dumped on you than you can handle, and you die. You die way too fast.

The truth is that if you are an agro pulling team member, and you have an agro dumping score chaser on your team, and you win, its because you carried them even though you were 1-12 and they were 15-3. Because for all of the opportunity you tried to give them, they took from you more than you could give. Its like giving a dollar out of your pocket to get back 2 dollars for your team, but instead getting only 50 cents from the score chasing interception. If you stop pushing while you have less turrets, you lose, fact. So in order to make up for your score chasing team mates idle time, you have to pull a crazy amount of agro to make up for your agro deficit while you are dead. Best case scenario is you get an extremely bad score and its extremely hard fought win.

Now it IS possible for an agro dodger to carry a game, but it is extremely rare in Dom, I mean like extremely. You have to be at like 25 kills or more, simply because opponents dont stay dead very long so it doesnt do all that much to kill them, but IF you do it enough, yes, it will work. But I cant express enough that this occurs with around 3% of agro dodgers. The thing is that you can pull agro on 2 opponents much longer than an opponent remains dead often if you are good. That is simply a greater player ratio advantage, its math man. You have to be CONSTANTLY killing left and right to be more useful to your team than a strong aggressive resilient pusher. But 97% chance if you are reading this, and you think its you, you are wrong and you are getting your team mates killed 25 times for your 15 kills. You have to be constantly slaying all game long to acheive this. Mathematically, you have to get a kill in less time than an opponent stays dead consistantly all game long or you arent pulling your weight with your agro dodging assassin strategy.

You can also pull agro just as effectively by hopping from one unoccupied opponent turret to another, forcing them to chase you or lose it. If you keep one opponent consistantly chasing you, you are pulling your weight on your team, if you can get 2 or more to chase you, you are effectively pulling more than your share of agro, and if they dont chase you, you take their turret which is even better. You just have to make sure you dont die TOO much. If you spend more time dead than you do pulling agro of 2 of thier champs, its mathematically fail, but if you can have 2 of them chasing you for a while before you are killed (a greater amount of time than the length of time spent dead plus the amount of time running back into the action) then you did good even though it resulted in death with no kills and no caps. If you do so all game long, you are likely to win, good job. Doesn't work if you have more than 2 of these, works best with 1.

In my opinion AGRO THEORY trumps other strategies for the following reasons;

The "get 3 turrets and hold them" strategy, is one that I believed in for a while when Dominion was newer than it is now and I had less experience in it. It is a completely flawed strategy for the most part, although it does have its place, like if there is only 10 seconds or less until you win. The flaw in it outside of those circumstances is that you wont be able to hold 3 turrets against an experience team. There is no way. At best you guard your turrets 2-1-2? So they jump the solo protected turret with 3 champs. Then they have 3 and you have 2. It wont last long this way unless they suck. Now, if you have 3 turrets, but your whole team aggressively attacks their remaining turrets, what happens? ****ed if they do, ****ed if they dont. If they defend their 2 turrets, then your other turrets are safe because they arent being attacked, and their nexus it ticking down all the while. If they let you have the turrets and go for your undefended turrets, well, you gained 2 turrets and lost 1 or 2, and you still have the majority. I dont believe Ive ever seen them scatter and take 3 turrets while your team takes 2, ever. If you can push all the way back and take one of their closest turrets, this IS a good place to defend while your team tries to 5 cap. If you can 5 cap even momentarily, you can defend 2-3 with a 2 turret choke point. This rarely holds for too long, but hit holds significantly longer than 2-1-2 holding 3 turrets, and they get their nexus DRILLED. Even when they fight and get back 2 turrets, you are still drilling their nexus. This strategy is a digression, but it does involve agro, and it is also wrecked by agro dumpers. (2-0-3 or 1-0-4 are equally if not more vulnerable, and really dont need an explanation why, do they?) That covers campers.

Now, there are speed shrine campers. Significantly better than turret campers, more mobility to respond, however, the constant aggression on top and bot doesn't let them set up to do this in the first place. As I said, ****ed if they do, ****ed if they dont in each lane. Now, if they take the time to run out to the speed shrine instead of running straight from the pool to one of those two spots, well, then they just failed both. That's why it would never set up properly. (Assuming that the players on both teams where aproximately equal skill level).

Now then, one more subject that needs to be addressed reguarding agro. RIOT, please incorporate agro into the scoring system, its massively flawed without doing so if the goal of the game is to win, and the point of the scoring system is to reflect your contribution. The way I see it, it must be done as follows; If a player is visible and within a certain proximity of more than one champ, they should get points for it based on the amount of time. Thats it. That simple. If they are not visible, they arent pulling agro, so they shouldnt get points for that. Whatever the circumstances, while visible in a reasonable proximity to the opponents is a potential threat to them, and is pulling agro. I would also advise that it be exponential, based on the number of champs agro'd. If you can keep 3 opponents busy yourself anywhere on the map, thats an incredible benefit to your team and should be reflected as such point wise. You essentially created a 4v2 for the rest of the team and yet you come out with a rock bottom personal score after pulling mass agro for extended periods of time is a BROKEN scoring system. Its all good, the map is new, and the efforts to develop an accurate scoring system are totally appreciated, but this must be addressed and given significant weight in score.

*(Reguarding death. You are pulling no agro while dead, nor are you until you get back into close proximity to a turret or an opponent. Therefore items, spells and abilities that increase your movement speed always or temporarily are extremely valuable in dominion. Ghost, revive, haste, good hands, Shurelya's Reverie, Priscilla's Blessing, boots of swifteness, and boots of mobility are all great. There are more factors than just speed in Dominion, but a haste passive or ability on a champ is boss.
Nearly the same thing applies to recalling to heal or shop. Thats nearly as bad as dying. Get sustain items so you dont have to go back that often. I rarely have to go back and because of that I do most of my shopping while dead. If you have to go back to base a lot for any reason whatsover, STOP THAT! Get some sustainability man. And definately use one or two or three or more of the items or spells or abilities listed above to decrease the time you are out of action. When you are not in action, your buddies are in danger.
I personally feel that Shurelya's is a massively under rated item. Everything about it is beautiful.)

**(When you apply enough agro to a lane to cause an opponent to be pulled out of lane or wherever they are to run across the map to stop you, the time in which they are in transit counts as having them agro'd because they have been removed as a threat to your team mates for the most part. The exception being if they bump into each other crossing the jungle, but in the dynamics of this strategy, that should happen far less often than "usual".)

***(Another time that you need to know about reguarding agro. If there are 2 or more of you capping a turret, and opponents are charging out to stop your channel, one of you needs to pull agro to distract so both of your channels aren't broken and you can complete the capture. Often it is worth it for the team for one champ to sacrifice his life to do this. Don't be a fool and just sit next to your team mate channeling when clearly you wont have enough time to cap it. Its useless and foolish. Don't be that guy. Channel as long as you can while giving up your ability to protect your primary channeler. Stand on the opposite side, the side which is where the the opponent will come from in all likelyhood. That way they cant reach your main channeler without going through you first. This will get you a ton more successful caps in games.)

If you disagree with me on my stated strategies, you have the right, but 4v5 doesn't win dom.
Oh, give me an up vote if there's anything in there that you find useful please. Peace.

Cryswar 11-05-2011 03:34 AM


I make a point of reading posts, no matter how long or ranty, once I start.

You have the dubious honor of being one of the very few where I just stopped reading two sentences in. USE. FREAKING. PARAGRAPHS. Holy christ wall of text.


(props for saying that people are free to disagree with you, but if they do, they're noobs. really open minded of you! ...****in tool.)

SportsLiker69 11-05-2011 04:19 AM

whoa, that sa huge wall of text dude

NetherGate 11-05-2011 04:23 AM

lol, ya, there's a ton of serious knowledge in there. It is imposing though, no doubt.

NetherGate 11-05-2011 04:28 AM

"You have the dubious honor of being one of the very few where I just stopped reading two sentences in. USE. FREAKING. PARAGRAPHS. Holy christ wall of text."

There are 9 paragraphs in there dude, it doesn't show paragraph indentations, though I should have put a blank line between paragraphs, so I know that now.

RealWolf M 11-05-2011 04:45 AM

Use paragraphs better, I can't be bothered hurting my eyes trying to read it.

By having a line between the paragraphs, its easier on the eyes, and easier to digest

NetherGate 11-05-2011 05:48 AM

see above, line spacing fixed.

Narogsun 11-05-2011 05:48 AM

yea i agreed there is players that play for score and never really do nothing more than take points that are already being taken and a agro system could help the score balance

NetherGate 11-05-2011 05:51 AM


Originally Posted by Narogsun (Hozzászólás 16854465)
yea i agreed there is players that play for score and never really do nothing more than take points that are already being taken and a agro system could help the score balance


Mailius 11-05-2011 06:23 AM

You mean aggro, as in aggression? It's not like the built in spellchecker freaks out over "agro" or anything.

This seems like an overly long post about how wasting your opponent's time is a winning strategy, which was known around the time the map mode came out.

You don't have to kill people every 30 seconds or you're wasting time, because in those 30 seconds you are alive, and they are not, and you can do capture related things in that time period.

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