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-   -   How to *help* prevent unnecessary losses.(elo hell) V2 (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1373699)

Verify Name 10-17-2011 10:14 AM

How to *help* prevent unnecessary losses.(elo hell) V2
 
If you downvote, explain why so I can reconsider my position. If you like my post, please don't forget to upvote so that the rating can properly show approval. TL;DNR is at bottom.
last edited: 2/26/2012
RiotKiddington appears on page 7
Current Solo Queue Rating: 1702


About me:

As you can see I was gold in season one, I am not just some random kid who lost some games and then seeks to play the blame game. Season two, I jumped up to silver in the first week until I had consecutive leavers feeders and just plain bad people. I then fell down to 1298 as a result of this; however, I duo queued with a friend and I got myself back up to 1510 with solo top Yorick. For my Yorick, I have 2 separate rune pages based on who I am verses top. And I challenge anyone to join me in a custom 1v1 top duel so that way we may practice or test our skills. I then fell to around 1390, but then i carried myself back to 1531. I then started playing cassiopeia. This post is not about stopping elo hell, because theoretically with enough games you can get to where you belong; however this thread is dedicated to helping prevent stupid losses which help perpetuate the idea that elo hell exists. I logged onto an account with 900 elo to see if i could get out of "elo hell", and i got that account to 1154 in 6 days i won like 15 out of 18 games. It is possible; however, it is harder than intended --you need to be an extremely experienced player to do it.

Status Quo:
I know about the debate on the existence of elo hell; therefore, I seek to avoid this discussion altogether and instead talk about how to avoid unnecessary losses. Around 60% of my games at lower elo that end up as losses, I foresee during champion select. For example, i played 3 games in a row with two people either on my team, or enemy's team, who instalock a top lane champion(in this case it was a mord and nasus) who would fight in chat before, during, and after the game about who was going top. Another instance is if you remember a player on your team from a previous match who did poorly, you wish you could get a different teammate. Other times you see duo partners pick certain roles AFTER that role was already selected and then have their partner chew out the other person for not being psychic. Another issue that has been causing elo drops is the problem with getting some players connected. This is not the players fault. I just did a game where everyone was talking to the person who was not connected in the champion select chat box. (UPDATE: it happened to me and I lost no ELO). After elo gets dropped once to any reason, it becomes harder and harder to succeed because you get matched with faultier and faultier people. So why do I suggest?

Suggestions:
Please listen and think about my suggestion I am about to give before you tune me out. I suggest the elo penalty be taken out; HOWEVER, the time penalty should be MUCH harsher. For example instead of 5 mins for the first dodge, it should be 25(first)->40(second)->90min(I'm not attached to these numbers, just throwing them out there). This penalty has to be huge so that way you don't see everyone dodging over and over. This would allow people to employ their brains in champion select to try to prevent themselves from losing elo. It should stop people from losing free elo just because a player in champion select says "OMG I accidentally picked wrong champion" resulting in them going 0/8 in whichever lane they are cursed with; HOWEVER, the time penalty for ranked will be separate from normals so that you can play normals while you wait for your ranked timer.

Some people argue: "That means it will take forever!!!!" Good! Ranked shouldn't be an impulse spur of the moment instaplay you decide to play with your irl friend. There are normal blind and draft mode summoner's rift, dominion, customs, and 3s for that. I would rather have people dodging than lose free elo to 2 junglers who instalocked simultaneously, or because two irl friends pick certain champions regardless of previous picks, or because someone was alt-tabbed and not paying attention to he should pick.

It was suggested by RiSKM that there should be a finite number of ranked queue dodges per day; for example, 2 allowed leaves every day instead of a timer. This should allow for people to value their daily leaves and once their second is gone, they will then not want to queue again for that day.

In dota 2 beta you are allowed to leave if someone didn't connect within the first 5 minutes of the game. I just lost another game that could have been prevented if i could have left in this fashion. It would have prevented lee sin being our ad carry bot. Where is league of legends' logic that as soon as you are in champion select, your elo is already being staked and that you have an equal and fair chance of winning that match? And then if someone didn't even connect in-game for the first 4 minutes of the game, the game is still fair and that everyone must endure the non-competitive 4v5? Is this loss of ELO of these 4 people representative of their skill? NO

Another issue is people playing champions they do not own yet play because they saw someone do good with that champion. Taking out the ability to play free champions IN RANKED should be an obvious implementation because at level 30 you should have already bought the champions you wish to play, and if not, you should continue with normals until then.
Question: "I'm good with X champion that I don't own and I wait for his free week to play him. Why disable this status quo?"
Answer: "Ranked should be taken more seriously and if there is a champion you perform well as, buy it. I do know that everyone says "I'm good at that champion I don't own" yet I keep seeing people fail at the free champions at lower elos. I know that the higher elos don't have this problem; therefore I wish to help lower elos not have a 0/8 Cassiopeia in mid."

A suggestion brought up by tomzilla is that newly released champions should be disabled from ranked play for some time (3-7 days) for people to get the feel of the power and strategies of the new champions.

My suggestion for the leaver situation was inspired by paragonrice on page 10. If there is a leaver, loss forgiven mechanics are then implemented. For example, in a 4v5, if the team with 5 on their team wins, they get half the elo for winning; alternatively the team with 4 on their team lose no elo because of the complete unbalance in the game against their favor. If the team with 4 wins, everything acts as normal because it shouldn't give them half elo for winning a 4v5.

Allow blacklisting so you can add people you wish to not be queued with. This is a long time request by many different players. Ignore list should equal blacklist, yet I have been queued with someone I put on my ignore list. It has been stated that there are complication with the implementation of a system like this by riot employees. A big thread devoted to just this subject is found here: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1086669

During the champion select screen, 3-4 votes should be used to boot a player who is obviously trolling. 3 votes should be necessary to kick a person who duo queued so that it is possible to kick that person because a duo partner will not choose to kick his partner.

As more champions are added to the game, more bans should be allowed, in fact, the amount of bans should be proportional to how many champs the two teams own altogether(i.e. every 10 champions owned by the shared champion list of both teams there should be one extra ban.) This way if the people involved in the match have very little champions owned, there will be a few bans while if there are 80 owned 8 will be allowed. This makes sense because every 10 champions made by riot, 1 is bound to be unbalanced.

Allow a normal draft mode for 3s. This shouldn't be too hard to explain: dominion has normal blind and draft; summoners rift has normal blind and draft; summoners rift has normal blind, draft, and ranked draft. If Riot wanted to sustain their continuity, they would add it for 3s in mirror of the other maps.
RIOT, Y U NO LIKE 3s?

Conclusion:
I only intend to decrease the needless losses in ranked by any amount. I am not claiming that my suggestions will help everything under the sun; however, I do think that they are a step forward, and I hope that this thread can serve as a medium to discuss any other suggestions.

I would rather wait 5-10 minutes for another game than have to endure 20+ minutes of a torturing loss. (I can still play a normal game while I wait for my ranked timer to get off cd).

Contact me:
Ign: best nunu na

TL;DNR: stop elo penalty so people can use their brain to avoid stupid losses, but replace with LONGER time penalties, or have a finite number of losses allowed per day. Ability to leave in the game if someone didn't connect 5 minutes into the game. Ability to majority vote kick off someone on your team if they are doing stupid stuff. Have the bans be proportional to the shared owned champion list of both teams (few owned champs=less banned, more owned champions=more banned). Blacklist to disable play with people on your ignore list. Disable free week champions from ranked. Half elo for winning 5v4, no elo loss for losing 4v5. New champions should be disabled from ranked play for 3-7 days.

Verify Name 10-17-2011 10:16 AM

/Sign to appear on this list. I also add you to this list if you explicitly agree without saying /Sign.
/Sign doesn't mean you have to agree with everything suggested, just agreeing with the discussion of how to help prevent unnecessary losses, and that something needs to be changed.

RiotKiddington appears on page 7 if you want to see the platform engineer's response;
he basically says that this thread is interesting, long, and that they will be looking over it carefully.

72 people signed:
1: SyStemHALTER
2: mdigibou (interesting system suggestion)
3: kavinh the third
4: CrashLotus
5: 1UPedU
6: Cpt Munchies
7: iTryToBeCool
8: StrygwyrBS
9: Dirtydogkbc
10: MrSpaz
11: as i was
12: OmegaLasris
13: OtherSide89
14: BURNER92
15: RiSKM (VERY good idea on page 7)
16: Kari Arisu
17: Aaronepower
18: quasistellar
19: GhettoSND
20: OlimarandLouie
21: 3Tears
22: MrLumber
23: LynxEvo
24: Rerue (VERY good idea on page 9)
25: Antich666
26: Fre4king
27: Tomzilla (good idea on page 9)
28: ParagonRice
29: Bukakus
30: Effectxx
31: Sediss
32: MaximumOverload
33: Purpl3Penguin
34: The Cool Train
35: Tonxic
36: dotSmoke
37: outy
38: dzgz Eclipse
39: Stradd
40: Kennith
41: fremz
42: The Fiasco
43: CykoDaKilla
44: Grukasa (vote-off suggestion page 15)
45: snakle
46: HkPoD
47: Zyane
48: Light Fall
49: Raizen34
50: Aramatheis
51: QuikVenom
52: AidenMacFinn
53: zeefomiv
54: mobs57
55: Arkravatos
56: Seaban
57: ItstheChoyMan
58: Azshael
59: Bagheri Surprise
60: shadowlegion
61: Motajo
62: Aametherar
63: GodEmperorLetoII
64: CaptainFalconE
65: nuttingfuts
66: Justin Xiang
67: Snowsprite
68: Blinkfenix
69: yifffox (post-game judging page 22)
70: FinalFan
71: satsujínsha
72: Comprissent

Verify Name 10-17-2011 10:17 AM

Viewer Suggestions:
===================================
Quote:

Personally, I think a lot of team comp issues would be resolved if you could chose your roll before you queue. This would include first what role you would be and second what lane you would take.

Ex.
I first can pick: Tank, AD Brusier, AP Brusier, Melee Carry, Range Carry, Mage, Support, Hybrid DPS. (change it how you will).

Then I pick lane: Jungle, Top, Solo Top, Solo Mid, Bot.

You can even go as far as not allowing them to pick champions that do not follow the roll they queued for.

Surprisingly enough, this was suggested around 3-4 times in my second thread I created. The only issue would be that this would detract from the community discovering new tactics; however, there could just be a separate queue for people wishing no set roles. I could even add that you can request which roles you would like to be matched with. For example non-sustain supports like fiddle or gangplank, or squishy solo top, etc. Just a thought.
======================================
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rerue (Hozzászólás 16899566)
I would recomend something along the lines of if a guy disconnects within the first 10 mins or so (just a random number) and never comes back, the game should be a loss forgiven as the other team could easily snowball to victory in the situation. I'm not blaming other people for having to leave or saying I'm always dominating my game, but there are those moments where victory slips away just cause one guy leaves.

VERY good idea, I do think that some ELO loss should be forgotten from a 4v5 if not all forgotten.


======================================

It was suggested that instead of losing elo for q dodging ranked games, you lose some IP. I would rather lose IP than elo. Just a thought so don't insta-downvote me, lol.

===========

I can no longer edit the post below because of the error that occurred. Aw well.

Verify Name 10-17-2011 10:18 AM

Links:
My first thread on this subject if you like reading ideas like these:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=249832

mdigibou's thread on changing the matchmaking system based on personal score:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1442859

Private Riem's suggestion for matchmaking lobby:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=9855725#post9855725

Submitted screenshots:
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SyStemHALTER 10-17-2011 10:28 AM

I agree with you about penalty dodge, players have to know that playing ranked is not a joke and most of the games are decided during the pickup screen. With the recent changes we are forced to play with instant pick and lock and trolls. I prefer to step out for 15/30/60minutes instead of playing with some of the solo queue guys.

mdigibou 10-17-2011 11:38 AM

I've done a decent bit of work researching how to fix this problem and the problem actually lies in determining matchmaking by an ELO system. ELO historically has only been successfully applied in one vs one style games. Chess, Mtg, and a few others. No true team game uses this system and instead most apply a concept of using lower tier events to "feed into" the higher tier events. Think American football, or most gaming events. The reason for this is this concept that you feel called "elo hell" in which an indvidual players skill doesn't determine where he sits in the ladder. One provides the aruement that "if youre better you should be able to carry". This arguement neglects the fact that numerous OTHER players (given such a large sample size of constantly "bubbling" elos) also are in the same elo hell boat. Assume for instance matchmaking provides oneteam with 2 of these such players, ad provides your team with only you. This makes for 1 v2, and 4 trolls vs 3. This situation doesnt mean that the individual player is any worse singly when compared to the opposing 2, simply that the enemy TEAM was better. Then why should this player lose elo? Because he cannot do the work of 2 similiar players? this is very unfair, unfun, and unprofesional as a ranked ladder.

this is easily remedied by using someones average "individual score" similiar to what was created in dominion. Have a commitee of top players agree on whats most important in a game (cs, kills, assists, low deaths, buffs acquired, buff assists, etc) and assign them some form of numerical value that can be easily displayed. It would take time to achieve a balance to this score, but it could be worth it. and eventually would lead to less stressful situations where even if you lose a game, you could stil rise in "player score" which could ead to much better matchmaking results.

Oh, also, 5v5 arranged should keep elo, as everyplayer knows the other before going into the game. When you get to choose all your teammates then the team assigned elo value is usually accurate as the "worst player makes the team" so to speak.

Verify Name 10-17-2011 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdigibou (Hozzászólás 15989532)
this is easily remedied by using someones average "individual score" similiar to what was created in dominion. Have a commitee of top players agree on whats most important in a game (cs, kills, assists, low deaths, buffs acquired, buff assists, etc) and assign them some form of numerical value that can be easily displayed. It would take time to achieve a balance to this score, but it could be worth it. and eventually would lead to less stressful situations where even if you lose a game, you could stil rise in "player score" which could ead to much better matchmaking results.

I have suggested this before, but it was smacked down with 2 different arguments:
1: Support would have a hard time getting up personal score since no cs and suppose to only get assists, and same with tanks. Jungles don't get much CS so the personal score would have to be differentiated between the lane minions and neutral monsters.

2: As a result of contention one, people will hog carries more than now and supports will want to last hit champs for a better score and then play passively after they have a good personal score knowing it doesn't matter if they win or lose. Also people will let their teammate die if they know that they might die themselves. "no skin off my teeth" type of gameplay." Understand?

This would be a good system if something could be worked out because I personally hate when everyone on my team is around 0/3/1 and I have a positive score. Even if you had the best personal score player on the losing team get a loss forgiven(no gain or loss in elo) once when someone on a team notices that their teammates are doing horribad, they will just play deadbeat/superpassive.

mdigibou 10-17-2011 05:42 PM

#1 is easily answered. If you are playing a clearly support champion, you receive no personal score for minions, period (in my opinion). However there would be a multiplier or some such nonsense for "team-based actions" for instance, hp healed. This is a stat already tracked and would be easy to handle. There are plenty of actions to track besides k/d/a. k/d/a would be a minimal part of player score(for champion types), as gold per game, gold per milestone (such as time), and turret kills/turret damage. If you cast CV and it reveals an enemy, bonus points. If you stun an enemy and it results in a kill, you get an assist. And in reality to be most fair to all players, kills would be worth equal to asists. there is no reason they shouldnt be. Lay a ward? Bonus. If this would require riot to "label" champion roles, then so be it. The person this most screws over is the jungler if hes playing a non-jungle champion. And like i did say before, giving players buffs is easily tracked as buff assists, and buffs received could grant score. Jungle creeps are mechanically already different than regular creeps so it wouldnt be difficult to say "hey these guys are worth more points".

#2 is easily answered. If you win the game (much like in battlefield 2/2142) there is a multiplier for winning. If you receive 10 points for a loss, then your score is multiplied by x1.3 for a win.
the problem with this method is at first if you have a good few games, your average game score (how matchmaking would pair people) could be artificially raised or lowered. Over time this would level out to reflect personal player skill.

I already answered your questions before you asked them. I said it would take a large comittee to iron out exactly HOW this personal score would be decided, but you thought i meant to use the traditional view. There is no reason a support cant have stats tracked to show that they are an effective support. While i realize these are other peoples' arguements, they aren't very clear or good ones.
The points system itself is not limited. Open your mind to new possibilities besides "only k/d/a must matter, it would be too hard to do otherwise". There are many things tracked by the game already that you might not even realize. understand?

kavinh the third 10-17-2011 05:58 PM

good idea it'll make it better for people to avoid obvious loses but still keep trolls who like lowering ello on smurf accounts from doing it. i mean if u see someone with rally and revive with a champ like sivir it's pretty obvious they're not gonna do very well or if u have an all squishy team.

CrashLotus 10-18-2011 10:34 AM

/sign


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