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-   -   Akali... Nice Concept, Flawed Execution (Especially on Summoner's Rift) (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=115657)

Lyrael 05-17-2010 10:30 AM

Akali... Nice Concept, Flawed Execution (Especially on Summoner's Rift)
 
It is my personal opinion that Akali is worthless in a 5v5 fight. She does better in 3v3, but the same problems sill exist.

W - Twilight Shroud

Its a nice idea, but the fact that the enemy can see where you're stealthed just means all they have to do is AoE the area. About the only thing its useful for is preventing 40% of auto attacks and targeted abilities while the Shroud lasts. It is not a viable escape mechanic, and I will publicly laugh in the face of anyone who says otherwise. Its slow is negiligable unless you max it out (and even then, its still pretty bad)

Proposed Fix:

Have it give magic resist instead of armor, and a % miss chance on top of the slow (say 20%). The magic resist will really help make it a viable move (seeing as how its outlined for everyone to see the area in which she's stealthed, which is about as big as a lot of character's AoE abilities), and give it some interesting uses in teamfights (the % miss chance and the small slow effect are nice contributions)

R - Shadow Dance

Well, this move has an interesting place. Its a very nice ability (great for catching people who are running away), and its an ultimate due to the 2 sec internal cooldown (assuming you have an Essence of Shadow to fuel it). The problem isn't as much with the move itself...

As the fact that as I have already established earlier that Twilight Shroud is not a viable escape mechanic (as it currently is), and you can't really use Shadow Dance to escape, either.

She's a melee DPS, which means that she has as much survivability (perhaps a little less) than a ranged DPS, but has to be in melee ranged to do just about anything. What every other melee DPS has is an escape mechanic ( Nidalee's Pounce + Primal Surge, Kat's Shunpo, Jax's Leap Strike, Garen's Whirlwind + Decisive Strike, etc.) But where is Akali's?

That's right SHE DOESN'T HAVE ONE.

And for those people who say 'take Flash, you pansy', you're silly. The most broken summoner spell in the game is not a viable solution for a genuine lack of an ability to get out of a fight without either killing the other person, or dying (especially as with Akali, you're right in the middle of it). There needs to be an actual way for Akali not to have to totally commit to a fight.

Proposed Fix: (with full credit to Somafera for the idea)

What I really like is the ability that, while in Twilight Shroud, for Akali to be able to target the ground with Shadow Dance. For everyone (including me) who doesn't simply want to see another copy of Kat's Shunpo, it'd be a very cool idea. It wouldn't cost her too much, and it wouldn't break the functionality of really anything (along with giving her more synergy between her skills).

The other fix (admittedly, which might be more simple, but I like less) is to simply allow Akali to Shadow Dance to friendly targets (much like Kat's Shunpo). It works for her, and why fix what isn't broken (my opinions on Kat are another matter entirely)

But please, Riot, there's been a ton of threads about this, and a lot of people who genuinely like the character. If we could just get someone from Riot to simply say that they're aware of the problem, and are considering possible fixes. That's all I'm asking, really.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somafera (Hozzászólás 1324030)
...but what i really want to see is a different coding for her "stealth", a stealth that actually stops auto-aimed abilities (Kat's ult, ricochet, etc), these with cast/channeling time (getting hit by Garen's ult when you are stealthed is just dumb) or even instant ones (you will get hit if they clicked you when you are visible even thought you actually got stealthed before they launched the ability). That will boost her survivability if your reflexes are decent.

Couldn't have said it better myself, and I agree wholeheartedly.

Edit #2:

Quote:

Originally Posted by AB3MBAM (Hozzászólás 1326247)
Just make smoke bomb give akali a -X% dmg reduction vs AOE, like you guys are doing with eve's new passive.

Actually, this wouldn't be a bad idea either... change it to MR, and add this to it, and I'd be perfectly happy with twilight shroud.

Edit #3
Quote:

Originally Posted by CC Radical (Hozzászólás 1325736)
I'd rather they add a passive for Shadow Dance similar to Yi with his ultimate:

If you kill a champion within 5 seconds of using Shadow Dance you retreat into shadow form (stealthed) for 3 seconds and movement speed is increased by 10% for that duration. This gives you a bit of survivability and rewards you for successfully pulling off a kill instead of punishing you.

So instead of wandering around behind your front line during a team battle waiting for it to finish, you can prioritize enemies with low health. And if you're clever enough to catch and kill them then your R passive will give you a chance to survive and get away before being targeted and CC'ed to death in 2 seconds.

This isn't that bad of an idea either.

Deliani 05-17-2010 10:36 AM

No.

If every melee champion is able to initiate and escape at little to no harm to themselves, there is no reason for ranged champions to exist anymore.

Anarchy656 05-17-2010 10:40 AM

Not all melee's got an escape mechanism. I think using Shadow dance as an escape will be OP, but the TS idea was really nice imo.

Deathlordx 05-17-2010 10:45 AM

When trying to think of a few characters that are squishy and have no escape mechanic, there are very few. I agree with much of this post and it doesnt take long to figure out whats wrong with this champion and i shall say this pretty much nailed it. +1

TimTheEnchantor 05-17-2010 10:52 AM

You have some great ideas, but my gameplay with Akali has been working very well despite these issues some people seem to have.

I don't necessarily agree with a Shunpo-like mechanic for Shadow Dance. It needs to be unique from Katarina. I am not sure what, but it should not function like Shunpo. Right now, it is definitely an ability you need to think before using.

I do think that the Twilight Shroud should be a little bigger, as to avoid the AOE's that are thrown in there. A good example would be to have Akali at least be given room to dodge Ashe's volley.

She is a glass cannon, she is weak. But I like the mechanic. There should be some adjustments, but be careful not to take away the unique-ness of other Champion abilities.

ben4zwin 05-17-2010 11:05 AM

I quite agree. If you cant be targeted by a dps person because you are invis in twilight shroud you dont need armor. However since almost anyone can just aoe into the shroud MR would make it useful for takeing less dmg from that aoe. Also early game you can really get destroyed by garen. He can just use judgement and go into twilight shroud and own you and you have no ability whatsoever to get away. (Is garen faster than her, because it feals really hard to escape in that situation often.)

Jooce 05-17-2010 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deliani (Hozzászólás 1321403)
No.

If every melee champion is able to initiate and escape at little to no harm to themselves, there is no reason for ranged champions to exist anymore.


This is the only game that has ranged with more survivability than melee. Ranged, in itself, is supposed to be your survivability as ranged.


Ideally, melee is supposed to be a forced to be reckoned with when you finally close in. However, most ranged carries (TF, Trist, Ashe) will wreck you long before you close anything, and are often times more than content to exchange blows with you.


PS. To a lot of the people that say "You're not playing her right, play her like this".

Waiting till your team has won the fight to go in and clean up the stragglers is not being effective in a 5v5 fight.

Lyrael 05-17-2010 11:22 AM

I think he is, and especially considering that while whirlwind is active, he can't be slowed, which gives you the same exact problem with Twilight Shroud and AoEs.

Also, for fun times, just play against a Sivir or Kat (or anyone else with a bouncing type attack) Twilight Shroud doesn't do anything against that, either (the bounces still hit you). Is that intentional? (Might be something else to be looked at).

But for as squishy as Akali is, she really needs an escape mechanic.

I'm still in favor of the Twilight Shroud + Shadow Dance solution mentioned earlier, but by all means, please contribute your own ideas if you have something you think will work better.

The more attention (and ideas) that are brought upon this issue, the greater the chance Riot will take a look, and fix it.

Edit: Also, what Jooce said. Waiting til the fight ends to clean up the stragglers does not a good team member make.

Vellios 05-17-2010 11:26 AM

I've actually seen some really brilliant juking combining Twilight Shroud with brush. It basically gives you a patch of brush that ONLY WORKS FOR YOU, and connecting it to another section of brush (or completely overlapping it) gives you plenty of escape lanes. While it's not an open terrain escape mechanic, I think it's pretty viable (definitely more so in Twisted Treeline).

As for the ultimate, well, I've seen some Akalis do exceptional burst, and others not to much at all. If you give her ultimate an escape mechanic, you also have to nerf it's primary function. Because as it stands, it is pretty good.

Overall, I think this character is very strong in certain locations, but not super strong, say, in the middle of a lane with no jungle entrances nearby, and no brush to overlap her shroud on. Solution? Don't engage there (or don't initiate with her... duh). I play mostly tanks, and if after myself and the rest of the team goes in an Akali drops her smoke shroud and ults into the middle of her stealth bubble, things die quick, regardless of the location. And if she needs to get out, it's not super easy to grab her if she ghosts or flashes out of her bubble and books it.

I will agree that having her smoke bomb increase MR instead of armor would be nice. I'm hesitant to increase its size however, just because of how good it is when it overlaps brush, and how impossible she'd be to catch anywhere but a few select points on the map.

gryffinp 05-17-2010 11:26 AM

Man, if I could Shadow Dance onto the ground I would just never die. Ever.

I strongly oppose the ideas behind this post, because increasing Akali's survivability would make her genuinely OP, which would no doubt lead to a nerf of her killing or chasing power which is what makes her actually fun.

I suppose I'll be laughed at but I genuinely like Twilight shroud as an escape mechanism. It's not the armor buff or the slow that saves lives, but the simple application of untargetability. While it's true that AoE neutralizes that, there's no reason why it shouldn't. A stealth ability shouldn't be able to dodge AoE, and complaining that it doesn't is kind of missing the point. The best value of twilight shroud as an escape mechanism is using it to avoid whatever hell the other team is trying to do to you and getting out while they're off guard. Not to mention the potential hilarity in using shadow dance to get over a wall onto a creep and leave the other team stumbling around in a cloud of smoke.


More importantly, I get far, FAR more mileage out of Twilight shroud not as any kind of attempt to actually obscure your location, but as a zone control mechanism. Throwing down the smoke creates an area that says "Stay the **** out" to everyone nearby who isn't flying your colors. With Akali's crazy burst damage, she can punish any transgressions of that warning with lots of pain. It also makes a good setup for ranged harass with Q, which, again, tells one person to get the **** out or you will rip them to pieces. And of course once you've created a healthy respect for your zone of death, you can use it for outright bluffing. Say to the other team "I AM IN THIS BUBBLE AND I WILL STAB THE **** OUT OF YOU IF YOU GO NEAR IT" And then proceed to not actually be anywhere near that bubble. It's a handy trick, and it's one that's saved my life a few times.

And of course if they start figuring you out and ignoring the bubble... well then you stab them up again.

Tl;dr, Yes Akali is fragile, no this isn't a problem.


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