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-   -   (very long) Issues that Reds have answered about Tribunal (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1127837)

LawGiver500 08-21-2011 09:34 AM

(very long) Issues that Reds have answered about Tribunal
 
For the Most up to date statement Read the final quote in each number this is a running log of all Riots staff statements about tribunal so things will and have changed.

1. Help, I just hit lvl 30 where is Tribunal (lowered to lvl 20):
Quote:

Originally Posted by hohums (Hozzászólás 9266753)

2. One game Tribunal case/ I had a bad game and was reported will I be bannned:
Quote:

Originally Posted by 0pherion (Hozzászólás 9796115)
Hi everyone,

A person does not actually end up in the Tribunal for a single offense :). This person had several games, all Leaving / AFK with all team members reporting in the other games. We don't always have all of the data to display to you at the time the case is built. In this case, we were missing the game data for his or her other two games. There is a threshold at which we won't build the case file, but this one just barely made the threshold.

If you feel like there is insufficient data, you always have the option to pardon the person. It may be the right choice for a case such as this ;).

Cheers!

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotPi (Hozzászólás 13479843)
A summoner won't end up in the Tribunal because of only one report, no matter how reliable the reporter is. On rare occasion a Tribunal case may appear with only one report; this is because the statistics for the other game(s) that they were reported in aren't available at the time that the case is built.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozrael (Hozzászólás 9342159)
There's a difference between being reported by over half of the people in the game (both teams) multiple times a day, over and over...and having a bad game.

<3

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamat (Hozzászólás 7090779)
Greetings, summoners!

While this new option in our report functionality is not a bannable offense; it will be used to improve the performance of our matchmaking system. At best, this will have a small impact, but it was worth implementing all the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EncasedShadow (Hozzászólás 15457266)
In Player Support we do pass on feedback. We want to expand on more areas the Tribunal can collect data from. Its possible they were very negative in another channel and the report is simply how the reporting player chose to report.

You don't get put in the Tribunal for one report, that just might be all we had data for at the time. Low data cases are (sadly perhaps) the minority. Its rare for now, but some cases in the Tribunal legitimately don't deserve punishment. That is why we have human elements reviewing the cases, both players and employees.

Let me expand on that a bit. You may see cases where only one game/report is displayed, but it is not the sole reason you appear before the Tribunal. We try to adjust our system to make sure this isn't the case but, as you've observed, a very few might slip through. If the solitary case isn't enough to determine their behavior, I recommend skipping the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotTiza (Hozzászólás 26271608)
....... A Summoner is punished if and only if they are enough of a negative influence that a significant number of his or her peers will report them and a majority of Tribunal judges deem the Summoner's total record to be a detriment to the game. That's the framework - attempting to nail it down as "if you say X you will get banned" is not a fair way to look at it. Every case will be a different "big picture" reviewed by a different set of Summoners.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotLoop (Hozzászólás 26282759)
Bannings in the Tribunal isn't arbitrary or random. The tribunal acts more as a verification system than a judgment system. One does not get banned multiple times because of the tribunal. First you have to have demonstrated that you are extremely unpleasant to play with. This is called toxicity. Other players have to report the toxic player at the end of the game before a player enters the tribunal. This isn't simply one bad game that a player displayed toxic behavior in, but rather multiple games affecting multiple people. Dozens of players could have encountered this player before they are brought into the tribunal.

Once they are in the tribunal, volunteers review the game match history and game log to determine if the player is guilty or not. This is not random, players end up in the tribunal because they affected other players negatively over a span of time.

At the end of the judgement process, if a guilty verdict is passed the the player receives a punishment. We do not ban players permanently after a single offense. In fact, players may simply get a warning on their first offense. To be eligible for long-term and permanent bans, a player will have to enter the tribunal multiple times.

Lets try an example. If Player X is consistently toxic, then he would have affected up to 9 other players (assuming he doesn't offend spectators). Lets say theoretically it takes up to a minimum of 3 games for the player to be entered through the tribunal. This player will have affected up to 27 players negatively. After that, tribunal cases are voted on by many volunteers and deemed guilty. So the toxic behavior of this one player has a series of peers who have judged him guilty. Now let's assume this player doesn't correct his behavior at all and enters the tribunal again and again until they are permanently banned. During that process they would have affected dozens if not hundreds of players. Would you agree then that this person deserved the punishment? Keep in mind this isn't some random happenstance of a person having a bad day, but a person who affects the community negatively over a long period of time.

At the end of this I would like to suggest that if nothing else, the tribunal is effective at removing the worst of the worst. It's not perfect, but it is not pointless.

3. Why are so many guilty:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zileas (Hozzászólás 9220950)
Right now, the system errs on the side of forgiveness, so most of the people reaching the tribunal are pretty guilty. There are some people that shouldn't be punished, but it's more 'guilty' cases than should be the case.

We are tweaking the system to get more borderline cases in. I presume many will get marked not guilty :) But it also means that borderline cases that SHOULD get guilty will get that result.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamat (Hozzászólás 9056158)
Here's the thing. You're seeing the worst offenders in League of Legends right now. It won't take long until those players are removed from the game, causing the cases to change from horribad to slightly less bad.

Summoners that are toxic to League of Legends are going to do one of two things over the next couple of months.

  1. 1. Shape up, and learn to play the game without causing others to have a negative experience.
  2. 2. Find a new game.

The Tribunal is a tool that gives you, the players, the ability to make League of Legends a more enjoyable game for everyone. It won't happen immediately, but it will happen. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozrael (Hozzászólás 9889691)
You and I approach this dilemma from different angles. You hope to be pardoned for your mistakes, and thus are lenient with others. If I were to appear in the Tribunal for a legitimate offense, I would hope others would punish me to show me the error my ways, and I would learn from that and use it as constructive criticism to improve my behavior. As such, I vote to do the same to others.

The cleansing effects of the Tribunal will benefit this community. As Azriel said, you're not the judge, but the jury. Riot will decide the sentence and mete it out - you're just deciding guilt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendragon (Hozzászólás 15168458)
Fun facts:
- The vast majority of players will never even appear in the Tribunal
- The vast majority of those who do appear in the Tribunal once never appear again after they receive their first warning because they adjust their behavior
- The vast majority of players who appear more than once end up appearing over and over until they get banned permanently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EncasedShadow (Hozzászólás 16417599)
Each case can consist of multiple games but only determines a single outcome. The objective is to determine if the overall actions presented in a single case merits punishment or not.

For instance if someone was spamming slurs while going 0/40 in game 1 but was only mildly unpleasant in games 2 and 3, I would probably still vote punish. I might have pardoned 2&3 had they been a separate case but that 1 game still makes me feel action needs to be taken with that reported summoner because they were that excessive.

4. Games played vs Tribunal reports:
Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotDaemon (Hozzászólás 763028)
Thanks for the concern, but there are several factors that lead to players ending up in tribunal. I am not sure if we want to release exactly how Tribunal grabs people, but I promise you that we took into account factors such as players who play many games and only rarely get reported.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...tdaemon&page=2 (ed: quote link is broken for above)

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotDaemon (Hozzászólás 9191608)
In your example that person would never come close to tribunal. We at Riot understand that everyone has bad games, and the very rare bad game will not cause you end up in tribunal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendragon (Hozzászólás 10056014)
The Tribunal actually accounts for this. To prevent abuse we aren't going to discuss the math or details behind it though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tryndamere (Hozzászólás 6826095)
Don't believe the initial poster - we examine bans on a case by case basis and review reported material.

It is not simply a matter of volume.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotTiza (Hozzászólás 26271608)
.......The great part about the Tribunal is that people don't get banned if one person is offended by something. People receive punishments from the Tribunal when multiple offenses stack up. The community is literally what's deciding what's inappropriate within the boundaries of the Summoner's Code, which you all agreed to before you first stepped onto the Fields of Justice. It takes a pretty large group to collect enough reports and judge the Tribunal case to actually turn into a punishment. Nobody is getting punished because a few people will report if somebody blinked at them funny. The majority has to be in alignment for a punishment to be passed down.

5. Tribunal trolling and who monitors it/ How automated is this system:
Quote:

Originally Posted by hohums (Hozzászólás 9266715)
Tribunal-tribunal is our job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamat (Hozzászólás 9056410)
No. That will not be the case. The amount of safeguards we've implemented to make sure this system isn't going to be abused would stagger you. We have a team of professional trolls, which makes us extremely effective at developing anti-troll safeguards. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozrael (Hozzászólás 9895923)
People are pardoned from the Tribunal by the community.
Failing that, Riot review the case and pardon people.
There are multiple tiers to the Tribunal. Generally, first up is a warning.

A small set of games is generally not going to get you into the Tribunal, don't stress!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozrael (Hozzászólás 11249903)
I believe since that post things have changed (I've seen a few posts by Zileas talking about tweaking which posts are vetted or not). The end goal of the Tribunal is to give you guys a greater degree of control over it - we just wanted to ensure it was working properly and as expected before handing over a bit more of the reins.

Do rest assured that we are still monitoring it and that we'll continue to monitor more serious punishments - warnings and the like MAY not be individually vetted by this point (although I'm sure we'll continue to spot-check!).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zileas (Hozzászólás 10621171)
I will check, but each tier is configurable for us. I Believe either the first or final ban is approved, but we have talked about going full automatic once we are confident in the system. Right now, the people getting punished are getting punished for good reasons. We haven't seen much false positive -- we ARE reviewing a lot of cases, and if anything, the system is coming out too forgiving. Results are pretty reliable because we require a LOT of votes on each case.

But I believe we still have an approval step somewhere in the process.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zileas (Hozzászólás 10621335)
Sure. Just to be clear, we are spending time confirming that the system is 'doing the right thing'. For example, there were a few erroneous second-time offender permabans yesterday, but we are going through finding them, and fixing them. If you got hit by one of those, please let CS know, but we should find them soon.

That being said, the people getting banned are almost without exception very deserving of the ban.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guinsoo (Hozzászólás 10538565)
Actually, right now, we do verify all of the tribunal results. In the long term we plan to review only serious punishments if the system holds up, but in the short term we are making sure it works by reviewing all of the cases.

I'm not in Player Service so I cannot look this up and tell you, but you can email support@riotgames.com to ask about what happened or for a review of your case.

Guinsoo


Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotPi (Hozzászólás 396925)
You should generally vote to punish if you think that the community is being harmed by that person's presence. I'm not one of the people who review cases, so I don't know what they would consider appropriate punishment (if any), but they definitely make a distinction between those two kinds of people.
That being said, I'm also quite interested to see what the community thinks.

http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/board...13#post4325113 (above arrow does not work)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EncasedShadow (Hozzászólás 14897160)
Nope. The low level stuff is automated because we found the Tribunal to be accurate enough to allow for that, but for now we approve the more serious cases (just to be sure though its remarkably accurate), as well as auditing the system itself frequently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozrael (Hozzászólás 15793537)
We do.
We do many types of audits. We have taken cases that were going to get pardoned and gone 'this just missed the cutoff, and we feel this deserves a punish'. This happened more before we tweaked the system to be less lenient (required less of an overwhelming majority of punish votes to punish).
We also pardon a number of cases that were going to be punished. The system is not blind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendragon (Hozzászólás 13821030)
Two comments

First - Sometimes it takes a few days for cases to be closed, so you may receive another Email with the rest of the case rewards if you were more accurate.

Second - we regularly audit the Tribunal, and set threshholds for required accuracy based on the actual percentage of cases that should be "punished/pardoned" through intelligent sampling.

Players who deviate too far from the actual punish/pardon ratios will get their rights revoked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendragon (Hozzászólás 15068541)
You seem to follow me around and say these things and try to twist my words around. I have a database full of statistics and regular audit reports to back me up, you have your own biased perception.

At present time - if anything the Tribunal voters/system are too lenient on edge cases.

I've seen pardoned cases that could have easily gone the other way, I've yet to see a punish case that didn't truly deserve it.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ymir (Hozzászólás 455137)
Just to add what I said in another thread here.

What Zenon was putting forward is that the Tribunal is a place for Summoners to make judgements and decide what goes forward, those cases that require any action against an account will then be looked at by Riot.

We're very aware of the concern that players want the final say to come from Riot, and that is what happens. The Tribunal helps us to see those cases that require action, as judged by players, making it easier for us to make your in game experience better and take action where needed.

If a player goes through the Tribunal and players judge them to have been reported wrongly then this will not escalate to us. However if a player in the Tribunal needs any action taken then it will be escalated to Riot for us to make certain the action taken is fair.

The main point to be made is that when any action is taken it has gone through a process that involves judgement by your fellow summoners, but at the end of that process it is judged on its own merits by Riot before that action occurs.

http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/board...=455137&page=7

Quote:

Originally Posted by EncasedShadow (Hozzászólás 16962125)
The Tribunal does not give players the ability to ban other players. They merely vote on a case, and the results and the case are sent to us for review. It's up to staff to decide if they agree with a guilty verdict and how to discipline a guilty member.

With more than 10 games starting every second we get a lot of reports per day. Just think, in a 28 minute game, 16,800 games have started since yours did. The Tribunal allows us to have experienced level 30s, who have a vested interest in maintaining the game and community, help us filter through these thousands and thousands of games.

We welcome your feedback and any constructive criticism you may have. I say this from the perspective of an employee, and a longtime player, but I personally feel the Tribunal has been a helpful, positive addition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyte (Hozzászólás 27010470)
About 1.5% of players are banned, so to be banned you actually have to be the bottom of the barrel when it comes to behavior.
Secondly, the 'toxic' players are rarely the ones voting in the Tribunal. We check these things.

6. Calling people out on tribunal forums:
Quote:

Originally Posted by hohums (Hozzászólás 9298258)
I'm only letting you guys know this as a friendly warning to the community as a whole. We have been a little lax here however it doesn't mean that can't change.

Its possible that we could ban people from the forums, the tribunal and the game for posting names of people (or names of people involved) that they are judging in the tribunal.

Apart from giving people a fair trial... we want to give people who have been given a warning or bans a chance to correct their behavior. To a beneficial member of the community. We don't want to ostracize people which can cause even worse behavior.

Just imagine if your name showed up and how you would feel.

7. 5ip per correct judgment case is low:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendragon (Hozzászólás 9210419)
Our intent is that you get about the same amount per minute that you would get from winning a game.

Our initial stab at it is probably a little low, but as we gather additional data we will adjust it until it's accurate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0pherion (Hozzászólás 9699402)
Hello Summoners!

I wanted to reach out to everyone who took the time to share their feedback regarding our latest feature, The Tribunal. We know how much you all want to improve the League of Legends community, and we were extremely happy to be able to deliver such an innovative feature with that explicit goal in mind. We've gotten a ton of great feedback on the feature and seen a lot of passion from players on the Tribunal.

Because the Tribunal is a new innovation to games, there wasn't a setup that someone else had used that we knew would work. We built the Tribunal to be able to adjust many aspects of the system as we learned how it was being used. We started initial IP compensation based on assumptions that players would review cases very quickly. However, thanks to your feedback and our internal research, we?ve learned that, on average, most players spent 2-3 minutes per case file. This is great news; it means we?re all taking each case seriously!

With this new information in mind, we have decided to increase IP awards slightly to 5 IP per case. This number is a bit closer to how much IP you?d earn over the same time span in-game.

The Tribunal empowers the community to enforce the standards of behavior we all deem appropriate for the Riot community. Creating the perfect community has never been "Riot's job"; the responsibility lies with all of us to build the League of Legends community into the type of place we want to game in. Our role, as people at Riot Games, is to help deliver the tools to let the players create this community. With the Summoner's Code, LeaverBuster (an automatic system that bans people who chronically leave games early), and now the Tribunal, we have ?developed some great utilities, but it's up to all of us as players to use them in order to make playing League of Legends an enjoyable experience.

Working at Riot ... we all LOVE League of Legends just as much as you do. Like many level 30 summoners, players at Riot vote in the Tribunal. When we participate in the Tribunal, it is just like our fellow summoners. It's midnight (we're off the clock) and we hop on to play a game or two. Before we join a game, we head over to the Tribunal and vote on a couple cases.

I hope my explanation of these changes is helpful. Please keep the constructive Tribunal feedback coming. We're excited to see what type of community we can build together.

Cheers!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozrael (Hozzászólás 11355574)
We recognize that you are choosing to improve the community in lieu of playing a game - it's a small offset in understanding of that sacrifice, though it does come with its own reward as well (a better community).

As Pendragon said, we really don't need all that many people doing the Tribunal - we have massive, massive redundancy at this point. Which, tbh, isn't a bad thing!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozrael (Hozzászólás 9443780)
In my -personal- opinion, EpicHippo (reiterating that I have nothing to do with the Tribunal's development), it's ok to have a low incentive - it would be counterproductive to have a higher one. The whole goal of this is supposed to be thoughtful deliberation on another's case so that they have fair treatment - this isn't supposed to be a way to IP farm. The IP is an offset as a 'thank you' for your efforts, but the main motivation for most proficient judges is likely to be the satisfaction of improving the community.

8. Tribunal Forum trolls both for and against:
Quote:

Originally Posted by EncasedShadow (Hozzászólás 9310411)
Trolling someone who has questions about the Tribunal? Seems like a bad plan to me, for a variety of reasons.

9. Tribunal cap @10:
Quote:

Originally Posted by EncasedShadow (Hozzászólás 9340926)
To my knowledge EU is currently capped at 10 as well. We do plan on adjusting the cap further, especially for summoners who have proven themselves good judges. I believe 50 may be our desired end cap for the most established Tribunal users.

10. Spam punish = IP / Remove IP:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozrael (Hozzászólás 9342885)
I'll admit that I haven't had time to do cases in the past couple days so maybe they look a bit different now.

Keep in mind that all cases are vetted by a Rioter before judgment is made. If the community is 80% voting punish on a case that we pardon, only the pardoners will be credited as voting correctly. While a thirst for blood may have yielded mostly the correct results early on, voting carefully will be critical as the Tribunal matures and you receive less clear-cut cases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozrael (Hozzászólás 9444109)
Keep in mind that thoughtful deliberation will net you more correct results than just spamming punish - and thus increase instead of decrease your votes per day.

The following is in response to a person claiming he just pardoned 4 people that day.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamat (Hozzászólás 9914955)
That's going to be more common over time as the worst offenders are eliminated from the system. I can't wait to see the changes that will occur over the next couple of months. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zileas (Hozzászólás 10589308)
Your hypothesis is that people are being wrongly motivated and are making bad decisions...

Well, you will be happy to know that this isn't the case. We have been validating results -- both people who were pardoned and those punished, and are very confident that things are fair. If anything, the tribunal results are too lenient.

- Zileas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zileas (Hozzászólás 10633317)
The reason we have this is that lots of research in 'Wisdom of Crowds' type approaches is that if those rendering judgments are not encouraged to be correct, the quality of the judging goes down substantially. So, by having this incentive, we are actually making the system more fair to the accused. Note that you can be rewarded for a pardon case as easily as a punish case -- you just have to vote the way the decision went.

In any case, we have been having senior staff closely examining a random sample of cases voted guilty, and are confident that things are working correctly in terms of who is getting banned/not getting banned.

And of course, even with IP reward, you get the fun of judging the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotPi (Hozzászólás 14110709)
It looks like you've already gotten this question answered, but I'd like to clarify a few things. When you vote 8 times to punish and 2 times to pardon, and the next day you see that you got 8 cases correct, it's natural to assume that your pardon votes weren't correct. The problem is, this assumption is usually wrong. Every once in a while when I see a thread like this, I check the poster's voting stats - I haven't once seen a situation where all of the pardon votes were wrong.

Also, don't forget that you won't get IP until the case is closed. While this is frequently a fast process, it sometimes takes time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendragon (Hozzászólás 15068342)
This does not reflect how people vote in reality, so I don't really see it as a problem that people think it's how it is.

11. Verbal abuse / Harassment / The ignore function:
Quote:

Originally Posted by EncasedShadow (Hozzászólás 9395483)
If ignoring or muting made verbal abuse and vulgar language acceptable, we wouldn't have a report option for it. It is however up to you determine what is verbal abuse and if the case meets that definition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhattayaBrian (Hozzászólás 13590023)
Don't be afraid of the rage. Seriously. Feel free to scream all you want. We only care about what you type. Our objective is not for you to explode from holding all your emotions in.

Good luck, though. It's a good example of why temp bans exist.

12. Punishing non-english speakers:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozrael (Hozzászólás 9422997)
The Tribunal specifically says that not speaking your language is not an offense.

13. Being punished for defending myself:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozrael (Hozzászólás 9423166)
While being baited does grant some leniency, if they're crossing the line (returning fire with racial epithets or descriptive accounts of their parents' bedroom the previous evening), then they still deserve a punish. Keep in mind that this is my opinion :).

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotAaronMike (Hozzászólás 15139569)
As some people have pointed out foul language isn't always the worst thing. On the other hand do look out for people that are just trolling for a negative response to then turn around and report them. That is why it is very important to read through the chat log when participating in the Tribunal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotTiza (Hozzászólás 26265728)
That said, two wrongs don't make a right. If somebody becomes abusive and disruptive because "they started it", they don't get a free pass. Yes, players who are clearly goaded into anger deserve leniency over unprompted ragers, but flaming someone is flaming someone. There are plenty of constructive ways to deal with unpleasant people that don't risk crossing any lines.

It's not a black-and-white issue by far- which is why we have a system in place that allow real people to make qualitative judgements on a larger picture of a player than a single game.


14. Good standing:
Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotPi (Hozzászólás 9442506)
You'll be able to participate in the Tribunal when you reach level 30. We need to adjust the wording on that splash, but basically you can participate as long as you are level 30 and not currently banned.

15. Punished for calling people NOOB:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zileas (Hozzászólás 9443523)
I would say it depends on how abusive and how frequent. Ultimately, you have to ask if you think the community is being actively hurt by the persons's presence. If they are hurting, you should punish them.

16. Pre & Post game chat:
Quote:

Originally Posted by 0pherion (Hozzászólás 9668510)
Alas...I wish I could. We are looking at the viability of this for the future, but at the moment...this chat is run via a different chat server setup. We'll keep you posted though ;).

Cheers!

17. I buy RP so I should not be in Tribunal/ Special Treatment:
Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotMontag (Hozzászólás 836156)
I love science and experimentation, but I totally wouldn't want you to get banned over something I could just as easily tell you.

We do take into account a lot of data with the Tribunal, but if someone's a disruptive member of our community, it doesn't matter how much money they've spent. They'll be punished according to their behavior.

Everyone at Riot is incredibly passionate about LoL, and we hate to play with trolls as much as you do. A game where you could troll by buying a few champions every now and then wouldn't be fun for us, either. So I promise you, once and for all, RP does not factor into the Tribunal or our decisions to punish someone, ever. Only their behavior does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jozrael (Hozzászólás 9949458)
Your friend is affecting the player experiences of all Summoners he plays with - regardless of how much they spend. We care about them as much as we care about him - this discipline is attempting to improve the net atmosphere for all of League of Legends. I'm sure he's had many people who've irritated him - we're handling them as well.

Also, please keep in mind that punishments are vetted by a Rioter before being implemented.


LawGiver500 08-21-2011 09:36 AM

18. I Play ranked and this is a competative game so I should be free to say what I want.
Quote:

Originally Posted by EncasedShadow (Hozzászólás 15040195)
If you want to blow off steam by trying to defeat an enemy team, so be it.
If you want to blow off steam by abusing your teammates or creating a negative experience, then I disagree with you completely.

Not wanting to play ranked is in no way equivalent to wanting to tolerate trolling. I don't care what mode it is. You will learn to abide by the Summoner's code and our Terms of Use, or you will not be welcome here

It takes multiple cases to get to a permanent suspension. They have plenty of chances to cool off.


Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotTiza (Hozzászólás 26264893)
What do you accomplish by "speaking the truth" and telling somebody that they are bad? Do they learn anything from that? Does that motivate them to play better? No, it upsets them, makes them defensive, and throws them out of their comfort zone. They're now focusing on you instead of the team and the game. Even if the game is already lost, you're just being abusive and upsetting somebody for no gain whatsoever.

I am hypercompetitive. I am infamous among all of my friends for wanting tournaments, rankings, and tier lists for every activity we can come up with...... Of course I get mad when my teammates throw, when something is miscommunicated, or my perfect 4-0 laning phase goes to waste because another lane goes 0-7. You know what I do? I am constructive. I give friendly advice, I keep things positive, and I move forward. When I'm too angry to think straight, I say nothing at all, finish the game, and close LoL to go blow off some steam.

Being competitive does not cause bad behavior. Bad behavior takes care of itself, and it's not welcome on the Fields of Justice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotTiza (Hozzászólás 26271608)
....Trash talk is in no way universally condoned. There are plenty of places where you're free to talk trash, insult teammates and opponents alike, and say whatever you want - I believe you can hear the rest of the internet constantly complain about those communities, although you can get a good chunk of upvotes for a picture of the bigger overreactions....

19. Tribunal repeat punishment:
Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotPi (Hozzászólás 12196146)
Don't worry, reports made pre-punishment won't show up again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotPi (Hozzászólás 9987372)
If someone is punished in the Tribunal, and then they end up in the Tribunal again, reports that were made against them prior to the verdict of the first Tribunal case won't show up in the second.

Following is a response to a guy that got back to back bans due to back logged tribunal.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryedan (Hozzászólás 10559936)
I'll forward this along to one of our dudes. It's possible you're getting queued up punishments. Thanks for bringing it up though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotPi (Hozzászólás 15366548)
Reports in the system that aren't in that particular case file are cleared as well (in the sense that they won't show up in future case files - internally, we still have access to them.)

The idea is that players should be given a fair chance to improve their behavior.

20. The reporting summoner's name(s) should appear:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zileas (Hozzászólás 10587740)
We opted to not do this in order to protect the privacy of reporters, and assist them in feeling confident about reporting other players.

Given our periodic review of tribunal outcomes, we feel like the system is working well despite the negative interaction you have hypothesized.

21. I'm innocent but tribunal found me guilty/ when will i get unbanned due to tribunal:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zileas (Hozzászólás 10587603)
Sorry to hear you are frustrated. Bans resolve at a time which is both a date and a time of day, usually some number of days after the ban is issued.

Getting banned by the tribunal is QUITE difficult. You need to first make it into the tribunal, which requires that you were reported a lot, and then you have to be voted guilty, which requires that your fellow gamers considered you quite guilty -- our standard for guilt IS a super-majority of your peers who you play with every day. In general, we feel that the juries are too lenient and a lot of the 'borderline' cases that get tossed as not guilty are actually quite guilty... But we've left this up to the community to determine how harsh they want the review process to be.

We think we are very fair with this given all that. That being said, I hope your ban resolves soon, and that you enjoy LoL and don't find you have another encounter with the tribunal. If you are a consistently positive influence on your team, it's very unlikely that you'd end up in it again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotMontag (Hozzászólás 11872542)
From our experience with the Tribunal so far, people generally vote the right way. That is to say, if it's pretty obvious that the person should be pardoned from, say, a trolling report like "this person did nothing wrong," people will vote to pardon.

That said, what you're describing is a series of unfortunate events that might lead to someone finally snapping and getting banned. That's a tough situation to judge, but that's exactly why the Tribunal exists. It allows players to decide in aggregate, is this a situation that deserves punishment? Some people might decide that, despite the reason for raging, the raging itself is totally inappropriate and the player deserves a warning at least. Others might feel he or she was justified and vote to pardon. The Tribunal provides the community with a mechanism to decide its own code of conduct and automatically enforce those decisions.

Following in responce to a player claim to be banned unfairly.
Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotLykaeus (Hozzászólás 10469925)
In this case where you are admittedly "one of the bigger ******bags" - I can firmly say that the tribunal is working as intended.


To clarify, you will be banned for AFKing in your base. That is not something that we want in our game in any form, whether you feel that it is justified or not - you are still ruining the experience for 9 other players.


Might I suggest instead of raging at your team and then AFKing because they did not do what you wanted. You give kind words of advice and tell them GJ for things done right. It will give you much more positive results.

Positive reinforcement works much more effectively; If you think they are having a bad game - gank their lane more, if you think their build is wrong give advice - suggest their next item instead.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...d.php?t=890861
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1292832

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendragon (Hozzászólás 15035587)
As a note - we of course understand that reports can be fraudulent which is why we have multiple stages of the Tribunal, and employee review especially on permanent bans.

What it's important for you to also understand - is the concept of statistical outliers. The likeliness that one individual has so many fraudulent reports against them that they end up being in the list of the most reported players in all of League of Legends is very small, (Like one in millions).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyte (Hozzászólás 29915248)
Sorry it took so long to get to this. I'm currently working at the LOL World Championships. I took a look at your case and did notice that you displayed a lot of toxic behavior in the past; however, you seem to be genuinely trying to change and we appreciate the effort to improve your behavior.

You've been reported in 25% of your games lately and that's an extremely high number. You admit to playing unorthodox roles a lot, which is fine in League of Legends; however, in many games you don't communicate this well with your teammates. When you don't communicate with them or surprise them with unorthodox picks, then happen to play poorly, their frustration leads to anger and toxicity which then leads to reports. For example, imagine if I went into every game dead silent and the team is selecting their picks. There is already an AP, but I last pick a second AP and instant lock in. Behaviors like these are not excessively toxic, but they do create negative experiences for your teammates.

The Tribunal is not a perfect system, but it's extremely accurate in the 99.8% range; however, this means mistakes do happen. They are just extremely rare. Player Support has reviewed your case as well and in light of the evidence, I'm going to unban you. However, I encourage you to keep improving your behavior and try to communicate better with your teammates when you do want to try unorthodox strategies.

Apologies for the inconvenience.


22. Im friends with a Riot staffer I cant be banned
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendragon (Hozzászólás 15172272)
When Riot employees are elevating Tribunal bans the person should never really be taken into consideration. I can assure you that if anyone appears in the Tribunal enough times that eventually he will lose his account. It's really not at all about who you know -- I had a friend once who namedropped me and said he couldn't get banned, that did not end well for him.

23. Why was i banned i want more info:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendragon (Hozzászólás 10589223)
For additional context - the vast majority of the time we suspend someone they know exactly why they were suspended, they simply want to attempt to argue their way out of it, or attempt (unsuccessfully) to justify their actions. I was going to post your ban reason here for you - but you're posting on an AKA I guess?

Through many arguments with people who knew exactly why they were banned - I've learned that it's just better to leave the conversation closed which lets us spend more time on people who genuinely need assistance.

No system is perfect and we're always changing it - but this is what we have at the moment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryedan (Hozzászólás 15171705)
• It would provide a "rubric" for players to abuse the system just enough to not get banned
• It wouldn't help in cases where players who report you don't speak your language (a common case in EU)
• It wouldn't help when players don't use the correct dropdown report option and don't fill out the "details"
• It would allow players to parade around their reports.
• It would allow players to recognize who reported them and further harass them if they are in game again.
• It would encourage players to "appeal" reports, even after being judged by a pool of players AND rioters, further wasting time.
• It would take valuable development time from the web team.
• It would open up abuse cases - Troll people a lot, then change your email address to some other email address and have them receive your report cases


There are even more reasons. Trust us - we thought through the pros/cons of implementing that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendragon (Hozzászólás 13033033)
For those concerned that the player in question wasn't provided with sufficient information in advance - please note that the Tribunal is a tiered punishment system. Each time a player enters the Tribunal and is determined to be guilty - the punishment increases. If the player participates in a sufficient number of games without entering the Tribunal, his punishment tier decays.

While we don't specifically let every player know exactly why they were suspended, we do provide a list of the most common reasons for suspension each time we issue either a suspension or a warning.

I've yet to see an instance of someone who reached the highest tier of suspension and genuinely did not understand what they've done wrong - in every single instance it's someone who wants to have an argument about how their behavior should be OK, or they demand specific proof of what they've done or we "don't have the right to suspend them" (copies of chat logs, etc).

It's a series of decisions based on my history of banning a whole lot of people, and positively reforming many more who showed potential.

Additionally - there isn't an explicit list of actions that if you don't perform them you won't be suspended (which is why we haven't published one). What matters more than the action is the perception of the action that other players have - and how it influences their experience. If you've done something that creates a substantially negative experience for some, but if you had been in a different game it wouldn't have been an issue - you've still done something wrong.



24. Tribunal feedback is Riot working to improve the system.
Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotPi (Hozzászólás 13436370)
Glad that it's fixed for you! I'll look into what caused it in the first place.

To answer your questions:
1. We're currently discussing adding the summoner level, but as far as I know people are generally in favor of it.
2. Riot reviews bans, but warnings are automated.
3. Letting players know why they were punished is something we definitely want to add.
4. I'm not sure what the current configuration is, but it's generally less than a week. Keep in mind that the cases you voted on need to be closed out first. (You'll be awarded for the ones that are closed out at the time IP awards are calculated, but the remainder may end up taking another week.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyte (Hozzászólás 26994230)
We're obviously missing out on the other half of the equation when it comes to behavior--we have a lot of sticks, but not enough carrots. I can't talk about what we're working on but working on every facet of player behavior is one of the main reasons I was recruited to Riot.

25. I get the same case more then once.
Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotPi (Hozzászólás 15433222)
We're working to determine the cause of why this happens.

That being said, the Tribunal won't accept a second vote from the same user on the same case. While it looks like it accepts the second vote, it actually just gets discarded. It shouldn't count the second vote against your votes per day either.

26. I want to punish more then the reported person!
Quote:

Originally Posted by EncasedShadow (Hozzászólás 16781319)
Its something I think we could and have considered to certain degrees. However, two things to factor in :
1. I think its more important for people in game to decide if they feel something is report worthy.
2. I check up on some of these people I think should have been reported, (cause I can ;) ). A vast majority of the time the Tribunal has already done its work or is about to. Getting reported again for something you've already been punished for would not be a great experience in my opinion.

27. Additional Links for information should you require.
http://support.leagueoflegends.com/e...lp-i-am-banned (Banned support page)

http://support.leagueoflegends.com/e...2-tribunal-faq (Tribunal fact page)

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/legal/tribunal (Tribunal policy)

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/articl...Summoners_Code (Summoners Code)




ok i was bored. This is almost every red post about the peoples issues with tribunal. I should have just linked instead of posting the quoets oh well.

@Zaresin: this is my first time making a forum post....so no clue in heck how to sticky lol

@ The tribunal forums: On reading this i have noticed i was wrong about a statement made in reguards to "13. Good standing" I said that a person banned was not allowed to do tribunal this is wrong based on the Red post. Sorry for the misinformation. The correct statement is a person serving a ban can not do tribunal.

SimplyAlive 08-21-2011 09:40 AM

Epic, epic thread.
I was thinking about doing this for a while (database of Red posts), but you beat me to it!

This should answer alot of questions about the Tribunal! :)
Great work!

Zaresin 08-21-2011 09:45 AM

Very well done...please sticky

Zaresin 08-21-2011 11:30 AM

Bump

Zaresin 08-21-2011 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawGiver500 (Hozzászólás 13218669)
ok i was bored. This is almost every red post about the peoples issues with tribunal. I should have just linked instead of posting the quoets oh well.

@Zaresin: this is my first time making a forum post....so no clue in heck how to sticky lol

@ The tribunal forums: On reading this i have noticed i was wrong about a statement made in reguards to "13. Good standing" I said that a person banned was not allowed to do tribunal this is wrong based on the Red post. Sorry for the misinformation. The correct statement is a person serving a ban can not do tribunal.

A mod will have to sticky...lets hope someone is reading the forums...otherwise I'm going to have to keep bumping this about twice a day with how fast this forum fills up.

Malachi Nnelg 08-21-2011 11:35 AM

This Thread+1

Darkerrow 08-21-2011 12:19 PM

+1 for the work.

GC Nate 08-21-2011 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkerrow (Hozzászólás 13224847)
+1 for the work.

yup.

LawGiver500 08-21-2011 01:53 PM

you know using these red posts to answer threads saves a heck of a lot of time.


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