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-   -   Tiamat: Why it sucks and how it can be improved (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=8912)

Warskull 09-03-2009 05:35 PM

Tiamat: Why it sucks and how it can be improved
 
Tiamat has been an item that has had many attempts to improve it, but none of which have made people actually use the item. So the question is "what is wrong with tiamat?" Tiamat costs 2320 gold, give you +42 damage, an AoE attack, and some health and mana regen. The problem is you don't want the regen on this item. The health regen is small and for the item price it comes too late to be useful. The mana regen is also on the small side and you can better get it elsewhere. Essentially the only thing you want on Tiamat is damage and the AoE buff can be a nice bonus. However, you end up paying 55 gold per damage point when you can get it for 37 gold per point with the BF sword.

So how can Tiamat be improved:
-A focus on cost efficient damage
-More desirable secondary stats

Thus I propose Tiamat be broken into two items, similar to phage/frozen mallet, just the inverse with damage being the high stat.

Great Axe (old tiamat)
Pickaxe + Long sword
+55 damage
Unique: Your attacks gain a small AoE effect
2150g(760g)

Tiamat
Great Axe + Ruby
+65 Damage
+350 Health
Unique: Your attacks gain a small AoE effect
2900(750g)

This would make tiamat costed so that it could be a competitive alternative to the BF sword if you just want damage and having the option of converting it into a desirable health+damage item. While the BF sword would still remain highly appealing because it builds into powerful items such as the black cleaver, the blood thirster, and the illusion edge.

So my questions for you are:
Why do you not run tiamat as it is?
Would you run the proposed great axe/tiamat?
Do you think these changes would make it overpowered or underpowered?

Savage 09-03-2009 08:28 PM

Well, I agree that the game wants a damage + a bit of health item. I'm not sure you really want it to be the AoE item though - unless you make the AoE big enough to be significant in team fights, it's just not going to be attractive at a high price.

I think you can take the item 2 ways:

1). Do as you suggest and build it as an endgame damage + AoE item for team fights in the jungle where you can at least threaten to rock two people with it. This would work along the lines you suggested. The AoE needs to be a significant component of the item if I'm going to buy it over a BFSword that could turn into a Cleaver / Bloodthirster / IE if the game goes a bit longer.

2). Farming item for the early game. In this case the regen is fine, but the damage needs to come down like crazy to make the item attractive to buy while you're still in the early parts of the game - this would probably involve pulling the Pickaxe out of the recipe and letting it drop to 17 damage at 1395 gold. I'm pretty sure that would be an outstanding item.

I think both ways could work out fine. I'm partial to the latter, though, as I think it helps it fill a need better, and it's just an easier transition to make.

Warskull 09-04-2009 01:00 AM

I like the farming item idea. If you did it that way, you could have the item tiered so you can put the damage back into it. You buy it early game for the AoE and health regen, then later stuff pick-axes into it for more damage.

jerzy 09-04-2009 07:14 AM

Larger AOE on Tiamat please, then again that also goes for Malphite's passive.

renticletape 09-05-2009 05:55 PM

Tiamat is a farmer/pusher item. I usually build it with trist (for fast farming with explosive shots), sion (2 shot creep waves for +HP), or trind (more charges on blood lust). I think it should be tuned to better fit farmer champs for mid game while scaling enough to be a late game item as well.

My suggested change: Add a unique passive that grants + 0.5 bonus damage to minions upon each minion killed and cap it at + 100 dmg.

Rapps 09-05-2009 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by renticletape (Hozzászólás 97291)
Tiamat is a farmer/pusher item. I usually build it with trist (for fast farming with explosive shots), sion (2 shot creep waves for +HP), or trind (more charges on blood lust). I think it should be tuned to better fit farmer champs for mid game while scaling enough to be a late game item as well.

My suggested change: Add a unique passive that grants + 0.5 bonus damage to minions upon each minion killed and cap it at + 100 dmg.

Haha, while i'm sure people love more damage on anything they buy, you're kinda missing the point. The others in this thread want to reduce the cost of the item so it can be used earlier, not increase it (and siginificantly based on that 100 dmg cap, wow). They want to be able to farm with it before lv 12 and not sacrifice 1/2 the game's money holding out for this single item.

I completely agree, Tiamat has potential to be great, but it's to late game right now. Even stripping all the mods and making a plain old "Passive: adds a percentage of your damage as an AOE attack" would make me more than happy.

renticletape 09-05-2009 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rapps (Hozzászólás 97570)
Haha, while i'm sure people love more damage on anything they buy, you're kinda missing the point. The others in this thread want to reduce the cost of the item so it can be used earlier, not increase it (and siginificantly based on that 100 dmg cap, wow). They want to be able to farm with it before lv 12 and not sacrifice 1/2 the game's money holding out for this single item.

I completely agree, Tiamat has potential to be great, but it's to late game right now. Even stripping all the mods and making a plain old "Passive: adds a percentage of your damage as an AOE attack" would make me more than happy.

The damage would be done to minions. There is already an item that procs a +500 damage to minions anyways.

Ryuk 09-10-2009 10:58 AM

The aoe on this still feels way to small. Does anyone use this for more than farming regular creeps, because it seems like a waste of gold to help you farm a lil faster.

Gimpb 09-10-2009 11:05 AM

Let it be an upgrade for philosopher's stone.

Fixzored!

Jpeg 09-10-2009 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimpb (Hozzászólás 109770)
Let it be an upgrade for philosopher's stone.

Fixzored!

fantastic idea +1

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpg420 (Hozzászólás 70785)
the question i have is: does anyone actually use tiamat? i've tried it once but it it was terrible.

i think it would it be used if 1) the aoe was increased and/or 2) the recepie was changed to something like Philosopher's Stone + long sword + receipe.


as people have mentioned they get Philosopher's Stone anyway. this would just be a late gameish cheap addon to it.



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