Need some advanced jungling advice
So, I'm the kind of person that picks my character based on my team's need. That being said, more often than not, I am a tank, a jungler, or both (cause everyone wants to play a carry). To be fair, I've come to really enjoy both roles, but what I'm here today is some advice on the more advanced finesses of jungling.
I'm almost always Rammus. There's not really a tank I'd rather play (good initiate, taunt, great survivability, very distracting) and he jungles like a pro(he's fast and ganks suprisingly well in the early game) starting with cloth armor and pots, eventually turning that into Heart of Gold. What I'm looking for here is rune advice (my current set up being armor pen reds, flat armor yellows, MR per level blues, and flat health purples) and finesse advice. By that I mean counter jungling, avoiding being killed by their jungler, and avoiding/dealing with ganks (in one game I got ganked by their entire team... twice) and stuff like that.
My other jungle character is Tryndamere. There doesn't seem to be a guide for jungle tryndamere so I've mostly had to wing it, but I start with offensive masteries (and enough in defensive to get extra exp and buff mastery) and use my rammus page for the armor. He does pretty well with a life steal scepter, but I have to base and get an attack speed dagger or cloth armor before he's really a good jungler. I really enjoy tryndamere as a jungler cause it eliminates that early game vunrability he tends to have, and he ganks suprisingly well for a champ with no hard CC. But it still feels shakey, so again, rune advice, itemization advice (the scepter becomes wriggles, dagger becomes berserker greaves, then I build him how you'd expect tryndamere to be built) and jungle finesse advice.
Finally, to broaden my horizans, I'm looking for an AP character that can jungle(who isn't fiddles, I just don't like him) and a tanky DPS character that can jungle, and a support character that can jungle (do they exist?). For those few times where we have a tank, are heavy on squishy physical carries, and need a jungler.
Thanks for dealing with my wall of text, and any advice is welcome.
Ending Note: I've yet to play a ranked game mostly because I don't wanna deal with the solo que and my buddies aren't lvl 30 yet, but I may in the future, so keep that in mind.
Okay, to start off: I'm exactly like you when you say you tend to choose what your team needs. I usually select a champ immediately when champ select pops up but when I see three people auto-lock squishy carries, I end up switching masteries/rune pages/champ to play someone a bit tankier. And second of all, when my team at champ select does "choose wisely", I'm usually given the opportunity to jungle and I jungle with nocturne, shaco, udyr, and master yi (gotten games with amumu, nunu, and malphite). So I do have jungle experience but my answers are only my personal opinion, so please take no offense to them (and that goes for everyone who participates in this thread).
So let's start answering questions. I personally think your runes a good for your jungle rammus. Some people like to go mana regen or mana regen per lvl glyphs but thats just user preference. And I've also seem some people go armor quins over the health quins (cuz the health quins got nerfed), but once again, thats user preference. It's just whatever you feel you need for your champ. A lot of people put strong emphasis on runes and masteries but in my humble opinion, it's really just about playing smart.
Now I've never tried jungle tryndamere and I have not seen many successful jungle trynd's (and the one's that are successful just farm farm farm). I can't tell you about your runes setup or anything for him but what I will tell you if with my Jungle Master Yi, I port back to base twice before I ever start Blue Golem or Red Lizard. And I port back once with Udyr before I do blue golem too. Truthfully, I don't feel the need to clear out my jungle in one go because for most champions (excluding champs like Warwick or Shaco), it's a bit risky.
With that being said, I don't feel that trynda and rammus jungle that quickly. Because of this, Champions like Shaco and Nunu (which are champs that can counter-jungle in earlier levels) become your worst nightmare, at least when they intentionally counter-jungle you. And because of this, wards become your best friend. Ward your blue, your red, [I]their[I] blue, their red. Whether they have a jungler or not, you should ward them because their AD carry will want red and their AP carry will want blue, and with your team, you can easily kill them and steal their buff. You should also be warding dragon, and remember he spawns 6 minutes after death, so call out the time + 6 minutes til next dragon. Warding baron after about 15 mins? And he respawns every 8 minutes. IMO, Rammus and Tryndamere can't counter jungle early on, and because they jungle slowly, are succeptible to being counter jungled, and besides rammus' powerball taunt combo, they're usually late game champs, so their early game will be at a slight disadvantage.
Unfortunately since I have not played jungle rammus or jungle tryndamere, I can not help you with items. As for other jungling champs:
Caster: You can go AP shaco, but this is very tough to be successful with. It involves of a lot of time (patience) in bushes setting up traps. I recently just read up on a jungle Karthus. I personally haven't seen one but I'm sure if you wanted another caster besides fiddles, you'll find a way with Karthus :P
Support: Shen can jungle and I think he's the only champ that's actually viable. Alistar and Maokai both can but I think they give much more to the team and early on in laning phase.
Tanky DPS: Udyr, Nunu, Cho Gath, Trundle, Jarvan, Olaf. The possibilities for a tanky dps jungler are endless because most of the tanky DPS in the game can jungle.
Hope this helps, like I said, all my humble opinion, but I'm open to criticism, just not flames =]
Ap - Akali, Karthus
Tanky dps, Xin. Ish. its kinda difficult to do xin right.
Support - Janna, soraka.
I can't give too much advice on your jungle Rammus, as I never play him jungle, but your setup seems fine. As for trynd, I jungle with him all the time, without smite, and usually do fine. Don't listen to people who say jungling without smite on trynd is stupid or slow, its neither of these, its just plain scary. But after you get over how scary your first 3 levels are he becomes an amazing jungle. For runes I use crit chance reds, yellows, and quints with flat ability power blues for the early bonus to your Q's heal, but I also use cd blues or magic resist blues it all depends on how I feel that day. I start with a vamp scepter and steal the other teams wolf camp even if they have a jungler of their own. Then pop bloodlust for the heal and move to my wolf camp to kill those. I usually take ghost and cleanse with tryn so I pop ghost to get over to my wraiths while I still have bloodlust stacks, a spin and a crit will kill the brown wraiths if you have bloodlust on. After wraiths I'll either port back to heal and get brawlers gloves or do golems if my health is about half, and I'm feeling brave. After you buy gloves the jungle gets easy. Go back to your wolves then, wraiths and you should be level 4. Then i go get red golems and blue buff, port back buy boots and you're ready to start ganking. I've also seen a friend of mine, the one who turned me on to jungle trynd, go with crit dmg reds and quints with crit chance blues and yellows, starting with a vamp scepter do well but thats even more scary. As for general advice with tryn, don't take smite its a waste of a summoner spell on him, don't be afraid to use your bloodlust stacks while fighting something, but don't over use them the dmg buff is critical, only gank a lane with red buff until you get boots, unless that lane has a good stunner//disabler.
As for other junglers:
AP - Karthus and Akali are your only good choices, but I've heard of people trying it with Morgana its just slow and dangerous.
Tanky DPS: there are loads, Jarvan, Irelia, Nasus, Sion, Nunu, Olaf, Renekton, Shen, Udyr, or Trundle.
Support: I've seen jungle supports before like Soraka and Janna and even a Taric one time, but supports really are better on a lane or you waste their abilities to help keep a carry/tank up and pushing a lane.
Just some suggestions. Obviously the Tanky DPS are best suited in the jungle with usually faster clear times, tanks get by in the jungle due to their survivability, and AP isn't optimal (although nunu is a top tier jungler).
Tank: Gragas, Malphite, Amumu
AP:Nunu, Karthus (surprisingly effective)
Tanky DPS: Xin, Irelia, Nasus
Support: None. Support is better off in a lane, supporting a lanemate.
Thanks for all the input!
@Archangel: Rammus is suprisingly fast when he jungles because his armor becomes damage and his powerball gets him all over the place. The downside to him is he HAS to start at blue buff. Tryn isn't so much slow, as dangerous early, and can't take the big camps too early. But I'll start warding things all the same. I always tent to forget wards exist >.<. Shaco's not really my style, but I'll try it next time he's FTP or on my buddy's account. And I've played udyr once, and he seems like he could be a lot of fun. And again thanks for the general advice.
@Lancefighter: I've heard of Akali jungling, but Karthus? Can some one explain to me how that works? He seems too squishy, Same with Janna, though I can see it making sense with her shield, I'll play around with it.
@Thatguyfoo: As much as I agree with your opinion on smite, I think I still might keep hold of it as tryn. Its just so useful in the early game. I use my bloodlust stacks to heal while ganking, then smite a minion to get some stacks back, not too mention anything that makes his jungling faster makes his jungling better. My main issue with tryn is runes. I don't have a lot of IP, and I can't decide between crit chance or crit damage. Crit chance seems better early while damage seams better late. Leaning towards chance. Glad to know I'm not the only crazy person who jungles Tryn ^^
Okay, all this is apreciated, but I'm trying to understand how Karthus and Janna can jungle? I'll play around with characters I have and future FTP, try and figure out what works.
Thanks and keep 'em coming!
Also, I played a round with jungle cho'goth. VERY fun, kinda shakey before he gets golem, but I deal with that as Rammus. He can also go tank or AP, so that's very appealing, what would be good runes for the big cho?
Also, what are really good counter junglers? I want to know what to watch out for and/or pick up if I want to counter jungle.
http://reignofelementz.com/jungle-tier-list has a good list of junglers. And Stonewall is commonly regarded as the most knowledgeable about jungling (considering he spends a lot of time testing out weird **** with jungling).
Most junglers are either naturally AD champions or tanky because autoattack damage is a large percentage of your damage as lower levels and tanks just take less damage (and often have abilities that further reduce damage or help with ganks).
Counter-jungling is about knowing about where the enemy jungler is likely to start, and knowing their clear times. Having a CV on your team also makes it much easier, letting you confirm what camps they have or haven't cleared yet. It's also inherently risky since you're going to be deep in their jungle. Champions that can clear camps quickly and safely are the best at counter-jungling - the top being Nunu with Blood Boil speeding up entry and exit from their jungle and Consume killing creeps extremely quickly.
Knowing if you can fight if you encounter the enemy jungler is a matter of knowing the various strengths and weaknesses of champs (and knowing where their friends are versus yours). Fiddle, for instance, is pretty much impossible to kill 1v1 with his Fear + Drain. WW is also extremely hard to kill with his huge health return from his Q.
Dealing with ganks and enemy counter-jungling is a matter of map awareness. Usually if all your towers are up, your jungle is fairly safe - but you should always keep an eye out for enemies leaving their lanes, and seeing if they take a path that would lead into your jungle or if they're just trying to gank another lane (or taking their own blue buff). Naturally, if the enemy team has an Eve or Poppy or other strong jungle ganker, you may want to be extra careful if they go missing.
And if you lose your first row of towers, you should be advised that your jungle is now potentially VERY hostile if not warded properly.
TL;DR version: wards + map awareness is the only way to avoid jungle ganks.
Oh, and level 1 jungle ganks are different. Get your team to protect you, especially if you start at blue buff, since that's an extremely exposed and easy-to-gank location.
Ap: I've read that Karthus works... but i personally wouldn't consider it a good pick
Support: Search for Stonewall008's Jungling Karma video...
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