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-   -   [Guide] Tryndamere: The Unbreakable Glass Cannon (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=5621)

Isaic 08-20-2009 12:36 AM

[Guide] Tryndamere: The Unbreakable Glass Cannon
 
Tryndamere is every carry-loving, farm-hating player's wet dream. If you want to be useful throughout the game, and be the most owning on the map late game (which you will get to first), you have come to the right place.

Now before we go any farther I need to say one thing that you should remember for the rest of your life (but probably won't, actually please don't, but keep it in mind for this game).


Tryndamere is NOT a tank!

Ok, ok, I know, there are beautiful Tryndamere tank builds, and they work. Very well actually, but they are SLOW

So for the purposes of this guide, Tryndamere is not a tank and you should not build him as one. That being said, you will be targetted a lot, in fact you will rush in and invite people to hit you as they notice the large dps you are generating, and guess what? you want them to be hitting you, you better be getting hit a lot or you aren't playing the Dark Champion to his full potential.

But wait you say:
Isaic you are confusing me. You just told me that Tryndamere is not a tank, but now you want me to provoke attacks, rush in and get focused fire.... That's a tank's job!

And that is why Tryndamere is such an awesome hero. You can build him pure dps and you are better than a tank at soaking up damage... at least for 7 seconds, but I've tarried long enough. Lets get into the nitty gritty details.


These are Tryndamere's skills, credit sigurd

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sigurd (Hozzászólás 52688)
More info on the abilities, friend~

Q: Bloodlust
Passive: Whenever Tryndamere kills a unit, he gains 4% increased critical chance and 8% attack speed for 15 seconds (stackable 2/4/6/8/10 times.)
Active: Tyrndamere consumes his Bloodlusts, restoring (Edit: now the first charge heals 130 HP) 65 (+AP @ 4:1 Ratio) health for each.

W: Mocking Shout
Decreases surrounding champions' Physical Damage by 20/40/60/80/100, and enemies with their backs turned also have their Movement Speed slowed by 30/40/50/60/70%. Lasts 5 seconds.

E: Spinning Slash
Costs 30/60/90/120/150 Health
Tryndamere spins through his enemies, dealing (Edit: now 110/150/210/270/330) (+AP @ 1:1 Ratio) Magic Damage to enemies in his path.

R: Undying Rage
Tyrndamere becomes completely immune to death for 7 seconds, being unable to be reduced below 1 health. Also applies Bloodlust 3/6/9 times.

At level 18
2265 HP
72 Armor
112 Attack
0 Ability Power

Tryndamere's passive makes him have higher crit chance as his health goes down, If anyone has the exact mechanics I will credit you and add here.


Skill Build

Lvl 1: Bloodlust/Spinning slash (depends on whether you are solo or with a partner. Slash for aggressive early play, bloodlust for defensive early play)
Lvl 2: Bloodlust/Spinning slash (depending on which one you didn't get before)
Edit: People have been pointing out to me to remind that spin is a great way to escape and chase, it can go through impassable terrain, so though i recommend only 1 level of spin early for this build, its a vital skill to have
Lvl 3: Mocking Shout
Lvl 4: Mocking Shout
Lvl 5: Mocking Shout
Lvl 6: Undying Rage
Lvl 7: Mocking Shout
Lvl 8: Bloodlust
Lvl 9: Mocking Shout
Lvl 10: Bloodlust
Lvl 11: Undying Rage
Lvl 12: Bloodlust
Lvl 13: Bloodlust
Lvl 14: Spinning Slash
Lvl 15: Spinning Slash
Lvl 16: Undying Rage
Lvl 17: Spinning Slash
Lvl 18: Spinning Slash


Items

Core
Start off with health regen, I'm not saying which one (just not a Doran's). I like regrowth because I like to get aggressive and stay in the fight longer, but the beads has a plus because you can more quickly get your mid items and thus your late items.

Mid items: brawler's greaves and optional avarice blade. The attack speed from the greaves are absolutely necessary and the crits are nice for... well you'll see

Late item: Infinity Edge is epic on Tryndamere, nuff said. 250% Crits is not a puny fact when you realize that tryndamere is going to be critting more than normally attacking late game. From bloodlust to his passive, Tryndamere is meant to crit, you will be doing insane damage, and nothing else comes close.

After that, this isn't necessarily a core, but Phantom Dancer adds more crit, attack speed to take your dps through the roof, and adds movement for chasing and dodge to keep your hp out longer before you need to ulti, what's not to like

Luxury
Black Cleaver
Blood Thirster
Guardian Angel
(notice any Tanky items? I don't think so. And don't give me any of "Guardian Angel is a tanky item" bull)

Spells: Ghost (very good), Exhaust (optional, can replace with boost, blink, etc. Whatever purpose you need to fill). I like these two because ghost is both defensive and offensive oriented, and you'll need that extra speed as your ulti is running down. Exhaust is good because i like an extra snare to go with my mocking call, which will from now be known as the chicken call.

Pregame

None of this is necessary mind you, I've been able to get to huge kill numbers each game without any runes/masteries when i was low level

Masteries I like to go pure physical damage in offensive, and indifferent between the other two
so either 21/9/0 or 21/0/9

Runes go for hp regen which good early game, and damage/attack speed/critical, anything that goes into the damage formula. I like movement speed and cooldowns also.

Role: Mindgamer

By now you have figured out the reason Tryndamere should be asking for punishment is because of his ulti, and his ulti makes him the best mindgame hero currently within LoL. If your opponent has even the slightest morsel of greed in his soul (and knowing LoL/Dota players, that's like saying "if politicians ever fail on their campaign promises") they will become your prey


Early Game

Great thing for you, it doesn't matter what lane you are in. You can handle solo or dual, and both will leave you well off. People looking at me askance for saying you can handle solo (yes dual disablers will rape all solos) should be pacified when i say handle solos defensively and with care, at least until level 6.
If you are solo, just last hit and bloodlust whenever your health drops below full, the new bloodlust buff which lets the first heal 130 makes this strategy extremely viable. The trick is to seem a worse player than you are. Don't even spinning slash anything, your base physical damage should be all you need if you are halfway decent at lasthitting, if not practice makes perfect.

When you hit level six, make your life gradually go down by giving them opportunities to harass you. Get them to push near the tower, and run to hit them when your life tells both of you that you shouldn't. Most likely they will take the bait and hit you or even better start chasing you (run back a little to give them a chance to do this. Turn on undying rage (be careful when, you don't want to do it too early, but some heroes have nukes, so know your enemy when you time this) And hit back. As they realize, albeit too late that you are unkillable, they will now be taking your attacks and the tower's damage and your hits, and ooooh how they will run

and BOOM you hit them with mocking call (AKA Chicken call), yep those damn chickens will feel shame to their bones and be slowed, guaranteed kill, but probably by the tower. You shouldn't chase in case undying runs out and their partner owns you. after undying ends, use up the lust counters it provided and just go back to laning. None of this actually has to happen for early game to go smoothly, you can just farm and not die, and thats a success.

If you have a partner, depending on your play, you can be offensive with slash and mocking call, or just farm. Undying rage also has offensive capabilities away from the tower, also relying on the opponents greed as they think they can kill you before effecting their escape, leading to them dying and you running away with one health. Otherwise, the play is same as solo.

Mid Game

Got your boots and maybe an avarice blade, and your job is now to just constantly be on the move. Last hit a wave, kill some creeps, but your goal is to hunt for oppurtunities to interfere in fights. Gank with mocking call and help your team kill. Your one level of slash gives you great mobility to get into call position, remember it only works if they are facing away from you, and even without hp items you have decent life to take some hits and dish some back out.

Your other role is bait. If the teams are not fighting, get the enemy to chase you by letting yourself get disable and taking some hits. Run into the middle of your team and then start hitting back. turn on undying and then enemy will be wasting their hits on you, while your allies will be not so ineffectually pounding back. If they run, remember you have that awesome, awesome snare that reduces their running speed to that of chickens. Learn the undying rage timing and ghost out just before undying ends (using the lust charges of course)

Your main goal is to keep your towers intact at this point in the game, don't worry about kills, that comes after you get your infinity edge.

Late game

You got your infinity, and you are now a dps monster. Just continue doing what you were doing mid game, but now you are going to be taking out a good 2 or 3 champions out average in each team fight. Don't be intentionally going for one on ones, Tryndamere if you haven't noticed is a team player. Midgame he gets other player kills by distracting and slowing the enemy for their hits, now he relies on them to stay around him to disable/slow/tank/distract/etc. to let him do his work.

That's not to say you still aren't going to attract hits. you still want that because the lower the hp Tryndamere goes, the faster the crits come. Even behind in level, tryndamere with or without support can own other physical dpses because 7 seconds is such a long time.

And here is where the unbreakable glass comes in, imagine a champion that deals 400-500 damage with every other hit and can slow you, so you can't escape, and no matter what, you can't be rid of him for at least 7 seconds. Now that is a nightmare...... if you are on the other team.



That's not to say you want to be constantly living on the edge. Remember to keep your head and know when to be aggressive and when not to be. The best way to do this is experience, you'll learn what opportunities are golden and which are just greed pits of doom. This applies to every hero, Tryndamere just allows you to be more aggressive than usual.


Edit:
I've found another interesting playstyle for Tryndamere, it serves a different function and you can find it here

http://beta.leagueoflegends.com/boar...7876#post77876

Nerdrage 08-20-2009 01:53 AM

I'm pretty sure his passive increased his crit damage (which is why infinity edge is so crazy on him) rather than crit chance. Could have misread it though.

This build isn't too bad imo, though I definitely prefer maxing out spinning slash earlier and having only 1/2 points into mocking until late game. You can farm 23481623146238423x faster this way, thus getting out of control faster with gear. Granted, it's less slow, but with ghost and/or exhaust you have enough speed/slows to get a kill on most heroes (tankiest tanks are the only ones I've had problems chasing down)

bountardos 08-20-2009 02:00 AM

i tend to get level 3 or 4 spinning lash if i'm doing a tank build. If i go dps Tryndamere, i usually have one level of spinning for escapes chase, and level Bloodlust to 2 and Mocking to max. Going Dps nets you a lot of kills if you rush infinity edge, juste by attacking, no need to use spinning lash.

Isaic 08-20-2009 04:31 PM

Nerdrage: I played around with the skillbuild for a bit, and maxing spinning slash will give you a great farming edge, but the problem with that in my build is that you won't have enough hp to sustain many of them. Also the other two skills take precedence, as there is absolutely no reason not to max mocking shout as it is such a good skill.

In every team battle, the enemy will be running forward and then back to reposition, when you mocking shout, you completely throw off their rhythym, which leads to your team having the positional and psychological edge, often leading to panic. A 30/40 percent decrease in move speed isn't enough to do that. Mocking shout first because its such a good team skill, and you can't sacrifice bloodlsut for slash either becaue its your main dps skill which you need finished before lvl eighteen.


bountardos: this guide is basically for a dps Tryndamere. I agree with what you say, just add in the element of mindgames and you'll have ggs all around

WinterAyars 08-21-2009 01:05 AM

Good stuff. With the changes to Trynd, and the game, i tried this in a few games and kicked a lot of ass. I have had trouble figuring out whether he's a tank, an AP user (with his spin being big aoe with 1:1 ratio), or a carry.

I think i'm now set on playing him as a carry (or semi-carry, at least). The change to warcry makes it way stronger. It lets you mess up enemy carries big time.

(Incidentally: my skill build has been level 1 spin, level 2 bloodlust, level 5 warcry, level 5 bloodlust, level 5 spin. Ult asap, of course.)

Also: Trynd can bait like crazy, just like you said--reminds me a bit of DOTA's Rigwarl and his unkillability. In the games i've played recently i've had lots of people chase me right into their own death because i had like 1 hp left.

(Edit)

I crunched some numbers (derivative of my epic "spell penetration vs AP" thread) and as a result of that i think what you should do is stack +crit damage runes and get an Infinity Edge and not get Black Cleaver. Black Cleaver isn't good enough with Trynd's attack speed base, and even if you stack armor penetration it's going to work out better for Infinity Edge and +crit damage stacking.

manco 08-22-2009 12:54 AM

crit damage vs crit chance
 
I did some calculations about crit runes... not sure if they are 100% accurate or correct but anyway.

Here is Tryndamere lvl 1 base stats:
Damage: 60
Attack speed: 0.63
Crit chance: 3%

Now, we calculate the rune effects on top of this.

Variations (all 30 runes):
- crit chance 20.25
- crit damage 55.59

We have these formulas (armor isnt taken into account):

DPS = attacks * damage * (1 + critmodifier)
attacks = baseattackspeed * (1 + attackspeedmodifier)
critmodifier = critdamage/100 * critchance


WITHOUT ITEMS LEVEL 1
critmodifier with crit chance runes: 200/100*(0.03+0.2025) = 0.465000
critmodifier with crit damage runes: (200+55.59)/100*0.03 = 0.076677
DPS with crit chance runes: 0.63*60*(1+0.465000) =~ 55.4dps
DPS with crit damage runes: 0.63*60*(1+0.076677) =~ 40.7dps


WITH INFINITY'S EDGE LEVEL 1 (+80dmg, +20critchance, +50critdamage)
critmodifier with infinity and crit chance runes: 250/100*(0.23+0.2025) = 1.081250
critmodifier with infinity and crit damage runes: (250+55.59)/100*0.23 = 0.702857
DPS with crit chance runes: 0.63*140*(1+1.081250) =~ 183.6dps
DPS with crit damage runes: 0.63*140*(1+0.702857) =~ 150.2dps


So I think you will benefit more from crit chance runes than crit damage runes overally.
Have anyone tried the comparison between damage runes, attack speed runes and crit chance runes on Tryndamere?

By the way, it would be nice if someone could throw us with accurate Tryndamere base stats per champion level calculations.

WinterAyars 08-22-2009 02:18 AM

There are a couple of things to consider:
  • Other crit items (2x Avarice blades seems to do pretty well)
  • Bloodlust charges (+4% crit for each charge--unreliable)
  • Level 1 is probably not the best level to calculate for

manco 08-22-2009 07:25 AM

My current build includes crit chance runes and offensive mastery 21/0/9 with ghost and teleport as spells. It works very well, I can get my first blood around level 1-4.
Next I'm prolly going to try out Swiftness runebuild with boots of swiftness and utility tree movement speed mastery.

My item order is usually 10regen item, berserker's boots, stark's fervor and then finally infinity's edge. After that I usually focus on attack speed items.

What build do you guys use, what are the advantages and disadvantages and roles?

NjalofTWFame 08-22-2009 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manco (Hozzászólás 62916)
My current build includes crit chance runes and offensive mastery 21/0/9 with ghost and teleport as spells. It works very well, I can get my first blood around level 1-4.
Next I'm prolly going to try out Swiftness runebuild with boots of swiftness and utility tree movement speed mastery.

My item order is usually 10regen item, berserker's boots, stark's fervor and then finally infinity's edge. After that I usually focus on attack speed items.

What build do you guys use, what are the advantages and disadvantages and roles?

I have been trying out a ridiculous build lately. I have stacked AP per level runes (except for the quintessences which are regular +AP) with 21/0/9 masteries. I buy a potion of brilliance and some heal pots to start. I go:
spinning slash
Mocking shout
spinning slash
Bloodlust
spinning slash
ultimate

The idea is to be able to wipe out a wave of creeps in one spinning slash as early as possible to farm/push. When you use the potion of brilliance requires some discretion. You want to get as much farming out of it as possible so that by the time it wears off your AP runes and higher level spinning slash can take over. However, you can get some suprise early kills because no one suspects how hard it can hit. After the potion of brilliance wears off, I buy a more conventional Tryn build involving items like infinity edge/berserkers greaves/guardian angel.

cwatz 08-22-2009 03:53 PM

A solid guide. Ive played a bit of dps tryndamere recently and think it plays much better now than it did previously. That being said im a big believer in building based on what you are facing and what your team is and not concrete builds, so I would recommend opening up some flexibility in the guide.

The only real problem I had was with the solo lane thing. Can trynd solo? Yes, almost any champion can really. Should he solo? No. He doesn't have a second lane parter to absorb damage or get last hits when he cant, and being a melee if he gets in a bad lane setup, he wont be able to approach the creep wave safely and thus you waste a lot of team resources.

Secondly hes guaranteed to be pushed up against his tower for safety reasons and the fact that he cant push it back, so your tower gets beat on, and it takes even more last hit potential away from him.


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