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-   -   Sivir: Boomering or Ricochet? (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=45961)

Sethala 01-13-2010 06:48 AM

Sivir: Boomering or Ricochet?
 
Looking at the Sivir guides and playing a few games as her myself, I'm wondering which skill is actually better to max first. The main comment I've seen for Ricochet is that BB is a mana hog, and since Ricochet is good for clearing out creeps, it's better to max that first.

The flaw I'm seeing with this argument is that extra points in Ricochet don't actually add much; the only change is how many enemies you can hit with it. Putting 2 points in it right away means that you're already hitting three things. A third point will make you deal half normal damage to a fourth enemy, assuming one's in range. To me, that just doesn't seem as useful as a higher damage boomerang.

Of course, I'm still pretty new to this game, and not very good at it yet, so I may be horribly wrong. Thoughts?

Piznit 01-13-2010 06:57 AM

Depends on what your wanting to do. If you are pushing lanes and taking towers, Ricochet is probably a better choice. Less mana, and it melts creeps must faster than BB...and you dont have to aim it :) You can leave it on, hit towers and it will still bounce to creeps as well. BB doesnt hurt towers AFAIK.

If on the other hand you are looking to move around and gank, the BB is a better choice, especially with the ability to throw it through walls and whatnot. Although I never do it, you can also increase BB damage through AP, I think it scales pretty poorly, though.

Zohariel 01-13-2010 07:21 AM

I max Boomerang and Spell Shield while laning, then Ricochet.

Early game, Boomerang Blade lets you harrass, farm and kill. Ricochet lets you hit an additional creep or two for reduced autoattack damage. At this point, Boomerang's versatility justifies its mana cost and makes it hard to justify taking early Ricochet.

Late game, Ricochet becomes one of the best lane pushing tools in the game and allows Sivir to farm entire waves of creeps with little effort or mana spent. Boomerang Blade on the other hand loses much of its harrassment and killing ability as enemy champions become more resilient - at least without significant AP investment, which is generally not a good idea. At this point, it's a useful secondary wave-clearing skill, as Ricochet does that at a much lower cost.

Of course, you could level Boomerang and Ricochet concurrently, but Sivir is vulnerable - not to mention mana-intensive - without Spell Shield.

tl;dr: Boomerang Blade is an amazing skill early on and merely a good one late game; Ricochet is a just plain bad skill until it's maxed and you have decent items, at which point it becomes awesome; and Spell Shield is too good a defensive ability not to take early.

EDIT: Should also add that Ricochet doesn't help push towers early on - chances are if you're pushing early, there will be enemy champions by the tower you're pushing, forcing you to turn Ricochet off in case you accidentally hit them. Boomerang Blade on the other hand can decently weaken creeps and can also be aimed away from enemy champs.

MBirk 01-13-2010 07:56 AM

I would pretty much say both BB and ricochet first. Unless you are up against someone with a strong nuke/disable that you need to defend against. But any weak harrassment abilities can often just be out healed with life leach/pots. Particularly, since your BB/richochet are very strong at harassing them.
I go boomerang first. Richochet harasses but will not get you kills early. This is double true if you are with someone else in a lane. (I had a game last night where I was alistar, and the sivir in my lane took richochet first. I /faceplamed, and then watched as our opponents ran away with 20hp 4 times. BB would have dropped them)

BB's long range is very good at hitting opponents hiding under/behind towers at low hp. It should be your prime skill no doubt.

Slide 01-13-2010 08:14 AM

I play a LOT of Sivir.

Id have to say that its BB->Spell Shield->BB-> Ricochet->then alternate BB and Ricochet with preference to BB.

I like having a level of spellshield early. If your good at it, it will give the extra mana needed to throw your boomerang blades. Aside from that, Boomerang Blade is SO **** good at killing creeps and harassing the enemy champion its silly not to take it.

My problem with ricochet early is thus: Each bounce does 25% less damage. People say its great for harassment. Well I disagree. After 2 bounces the damage is REALLY pitiful. More bounces means even worse. I find I get more damage output early on (when BB is most effective) with BB.

I have seen many people argue that in some matchups Ricochet is better. Specifically Sivir VS Sivir. I disagree. In a Sivir VS Sivir battle, if both are well played, the winner will be whomever pushes more. BB will allow you to push FAR more then Ricochet. While the Ricochet sivir is hitting you with bounces doing 10 damage (I always spec 21 points in defense) you can pretty much ignore them. They however, cant ignore your boomerang blade. The key is course, if hitting the entire creep wave AND the enemy champion. If that oportunity doest arrive, I generally hit the creep wave over the enemy hero. creeps dont dodge and they dont have spell blocking abilities. More importantly, my objectove as Sivir is to get as early a starks as possible so my team can 5 man push a lane right to the inhib. Focusing my BB on the creeo wave gets me there faster then a sivir using Ricochet.

Of course, build has a lot to do with it. s I mentioned I go 21 points in defense. That plus a scpeter and you can ignore creep damage and a lot of harassment from the enemy champ. I find mana regen glyphs VERY important to compliment the early chalice. Chalice SHOULD be completed on Sivir by level 4. Hopefully you took teleport so you can recall, buy it, tekle back and not miss a creep wave. Before elvel 4, the pendant and your spellshield should keep you in the game.

Aside from that, a lot of the info in this threadd is great, pay attention to it.

BB first!!

WayMaker 01-13-2010 08:51 AM

I would say there's no right thing to level up first, its usually dependent on the situation. If your enemy is smart and stands back, then generally spiral blade is more useful, if they like to stand near the creeps, then ricochet is better once you have a little extra attack speed. Having armor pen runes + attack speed runes (I'm going to replace those at some point, but they're handy early game) along with any additional speed buff item gives you a lot of dps pretty early on. Yes on bounce doesn't do much, but generally if they stand near the creeps to last hit, you'll get 5+ bounces on them.

Also if you are not facing a mage, you only need 1 level in spell shield for a while (stay safe in case of ganks), meaning you level up ricochet and spiral blade which gives you much better harassment than one or the other. High dps means lots of bounces and spiral blade can still hit the enemy champion if you prepositioned yourself correctly (and don't obviously give away intentions by moving forward).

I plan on testing out a dps/crit build at some point similar to what some people use on yi, if bounces can crit, then a high % crit chance would make ricochet very good early on.

Prospero 01-13-2010 09:42 AM

I've had a lot of success with ricochet first, although I always pick up one rank of BB to kill the occasional dumb runner. I find ricochet lets me hit people milling around their towers safely and to keep melee champs off the front line. The trick is to pick targets that are going to bounce favorably for you. I definitely get fewer kills in the eearly game when maxing ricochet, but I've found my lane game is much better overall.

Try both and see which works for you. Both are viable.

Slide 01-13-2010 09:49 AM

I disagree Prospero.

As far as towers are concerned, if your bounce can hit the champ under the tower, chances are, your in tower range and will take tower agro.

BB however can hit them and give you the time to get out of tower range BEFORE the BB hits.

For Melee champs youd have to be stupid to take Ricochet first. If they are standing IN the creep wave, BB is REALLY easy to land on them AND all the creeps.

As to what waymaker said, Im doubting his advice as Ricochet bounces are magic damage and armor penetration will do nothing for you except the first hit. Bounces, being magical, do not crit nor do they apply effects. Always take advice from people who dont understand how champions work with a grain of salt.

MBirk 01-13-2010 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QUICKSLIDE (Hozzászólás 509300)
I disagree Prospero.

As far as towers are concerned, if your bounce can hit the champ under the tower, chances are, your in tower range and will take tower agro.

BB however can hit them and give you the time to get out of tower range BEFORE the BB hits.

For Melee champs youd have to be stupid to take Ricochet first. If they are standing IN the creep wave, BB is REALLY easy to land on them AND all the creeps.

As to what waymaker said, Im doubting his advice as Ricochet bounces are magic damage and armor penetration will do nothing for you except the first hit. Bounces, being magical, do not crit nor do they apply effects. Always take advice from people who dont understand how champions work with a grain of salt.

Bounces do not crit, that is correct for sure.

Phreak said they were magical, I had another person swear up and down they tested them personally, and they are physical. I haven't tested yet personally for sure.

Purutzil 01-13-2010 10:07 AM

Ricochet is incredibly good the faster you max it. I'll get Ricochet and invest in boomarang and 1 point in shield. Ricochet adds the ability to kill creeps and push faster AND can even go about hitting enemy heros while your pushing the lane back at the same time. This makes it incredibly effective by providing in support in two ways. Added in is the fact that the mana drained by Ricochet lets you push lanes much longer.

Don't forget also ricochet can go as far as hitting enemies without having to be so close giving you a range advantage at the same time as killing creeps.


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