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-   -   Riot, please isolate players who are new to ranked (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=378511)

Rhamiel 12-05-2010 07:44 AM

Riot, please isolate players who are new to ranked
 
Hey there, I'm a 1200-ish Elo player. I'm fine with that. I would not consider this "hell" or anything, and I'm totally aware that it's actually above average. This is not about me being ashamed of my Elo or thinking I should be rated higher.

But the thing is, Riot, I have fought hard for this modest Elo of mine. I have played over 300 ranked games just for this. It's probably where I belong, but there is something unimaginably, teeth-grindingly frustrating about it: I'm being matched with players who have never played ranked games before. Sometimes they have played a few, and that is really not any better. It's not that they're bad. Some are probably on their way up to 1600 Elo or whatever ... in a while. In the meantime, they have no ranked experience, and there is a learning curve to ranked games that begins anew even after you've levelled your account all the way to 30.

I'm sure you'll admit that there is a difference between normal and ranked play, and I'm sure that this is by design. This means that players new to ranked are in for something different, and that they will not be accustomed to it yet. They may be on their way up, but they may have to fall down first and learn some new lessons--or they may learn them very quickly, and steadily gain. That's fine, it's the way it's supposed to work. But gosh darn, Riot, I have learned those lessons. This doesn't make me an excellent player; I'm not. But experience means that a 1200-ranked player with 300 games is not going to play like a 1200-ranked player with 0 games, or 5, or 20. It's not about being fundamentally better or worse, it's about the knowledge that comes with experience.

I know when the laning phase is over. I know the value of warding. I know not to die for a turret, etc. etc. and, honestly, most new ranked players don't know those things. Again, this doesn't mean they suck, it just means they haven't had the opportunity to learn them yet, and that is not their fault. But I really don't want to be matched with or against them any more.

Anyway, I think there's a simple solution to this: Keep them in a separate queue, with each other, for their first, lets say 50 ranked games. Let them gain and lose real ranked Elo that counts, but don't dump them into the pool of players with more games than that until they reach the experience threshold. This may or may not be extremely difficult to do; I don't know how hard it would be to alter the matchmaking system in such a way.

I expect that, because Elo gain and loss is exaggerated for the first ranked games someone plays, this issue is effecting people from about 1100 rating to about 1300. Other players out there who have issues with this, feel free to post about it.

Anyway, Riot, I'd really appreciate a response on this. I know 1200 Elo players are probably not your top priority, I get that and it's fine. I'm not going to draw in new players with my leetness and esports celebrity, after all. But if it's even on your radar at all, it would be nice to know, and honestly even if you want to tell me "it's fine, l2p", it'd be better to know that you don't care and that this isn't going to change than not to know.

Penis Thrusts 12-05-2010 07:46 AM

+1

Trixie 12-05-2010 07:50 AM

TL;DR Verson please?

Pivu 12-05-2010 07:51 AM

I agree. I knew nothing about this game when i reached lvl 30. I started jungling after 400 games played. Until then i didn't even know how to control dragon, or when jungle creeps spawn. I didn't know where to put runes. I didn't even know what type of damage is dealt by specific champions skills.

If I played any ranked games back then, I would fail.

In 1200 elo i played with Warwick that wanted mid badly, and rushed last whisper as first item. He wasn't trolling, he was just pretty unexperienced.

LameLikeMike 12-05-2010 07:54 AM

TL;DR

I'm not a **** i just want to play with people that are actually playing at a 1200 elo. create a ranked noobie island plz.

pdpsilver 12-05-2010 07:59 AM

if you put the new ranked players all in a queue together, than its sorta just like normal games again, just with draft picking isn't it? how are they gonna learn that the laning phase is over or how to ward when they're only playing with each other, and none of them know how?

i think they have to matched with players who have ranked experience already in order for them to learn that to proceed in elo, its a whole new playstyle. its not an issue of them having their own queue, that could just make the problem worse. imagine them having their own Q, and some scrub manages to elevate his elo to 1500+ playing with other unexperienced kids, but never learns to ward or how to properly play on a team. now throw him into the current MM with this complete lack of experience. arguably... with the way half of LoL players actually play, this wouldnt be any different than what is already going on now.

i feel like the best solution to your problem is to have them enter ranked games with an elo ~1000. 1200 elo is essentially a 1:1 w/l ratio, and like you said.. that does seem to be above average, so why not start them a little lower imo

Rhamiel 12-05-2010 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Protosega (Hozzászólás 4515338)
TL;DR Verson please?

Okay, if I must: Basically, a 1200-ranked player with a ton of games played is not at all the same thing as a 1200-ranked player who has that rating because they have never played ranked before, or have only played a handful of ranked games. It's kind of messed up that they get matched together. It would be nice if there was a way to separate them.


Quote:

Originally Posted by pdpsilver (Hozzászólás 4515456)
if you put the new ranked players all in a queue together, than its sorta just like normal games again, just with draft picking isn't it? how are they gonna learn that the laning phase is over or how to ward when they're only playing with each other, and none of them know how?

i think they have to matched with players who have ranked experience already in order for them to learn that to proceed in elo, its a whole new playstyle. its not an issue of them having their own queue, that could just make the problem worse. imagine them having their own Q, and some scrub manages to elevate his elo to 1500+ playing with other unexperienced kids, but never learns to ward or how to properly play on a team. now throw him into the current MM with this complete lack of experience. arguably... with the way half of LoL players actually play, this wouldnt be any different than what is already going on now.

i feel like the best solution to your problem is to have them enter ranked games with an elo ~1000. 1200 elo is essentially a 1:1 w/l ratio, and like you said.. that does seem to be above average, so why not start them a little lower imo

Well, you know, that's a good point. I'm not sure that I have the perfect solution here. My goal was more to call attention to the problem, and I wanted to offer something at least in the way of a suggestion. It's very possible that your idea is better. I guess some brainstorming is good, and I still want to know if Riot has come up with anything in the way of ideas for this themselves.

But even if my proposed fix sucks, this is still a big problem to me and players like me, of whom I'd guess there are many.

By the way, 1200 is actually better than 1:1, for some reason, after you've played a lot of games. I've had a positive record (even accounting for my 3 leaves from video card failures) and been at like 1175. Beyond that, Elo decays over time because queue dodging causes Elo loss with no Elo gain for anyone to compensate, and thus the average Elo is always in decline as long as people are dodging queues.

EDIT: Though, on the other hand, in defense of a separate queue, a player with no ranked games played could be matched in that system with a player who had 49, and possibly learn something from them. Also, if someone is a newbie to ranked and is beating up all the other newbies to ranked, they probably deserve to gain Elo (and vice versa). In the current system they could be getting carried by players with tons of experience, or losing to them.

Mr Wind Up Bird 12-05-2010 08:21 AM

I can't find the post, but I think they already do this. I'll keep googling to confirm.

Twilexia 12-05-2010 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhamiel (Hozzászólás 4515277)
Hey there, I'm a 1200-ish Elo player. I'm fine with that. I would not consider this "hell" or anything, and I'm totally aware that it's actually above average. This is not about me being ashamed of my Elo or thinking I should be rated higher.

But the thing is, Riot, I have fought hard for this modest Elo of mine. I have played over 300 ranked games just for this. It's probably where I belong, but there is something unimaginably, teeth-grindingly frustrating about it: I'm being matched with players who have never played ranked games before. Sometimes they have played a few, and that is really not any better. It's not that they're bad. Some are probably on their way up to 1600 Elo or whatever ... in a while. In the meantime, they have no ranked experience, and there is a learning curve to ranked games that begins anew even after you've levelled your account all the way to 30.

I'm sure you'll admit that there is a difference between normal and ranked play, and I'm sure that this is by design. This means that players new to ranked are in for something different, and that they will not be accustomed to it yet. They may be on their way up, but they may have to fall down first and learn some new lessons--or they may learn them very quickly, and steadily gain. That's fine, it's the way it's supposed to work. But gosh darn, Riot, I have learned those lessons. This doesn't make me an excellent player; I'm not. But experience means that a 1200-ranked player with 300 games is not going to play like a 1200-ranked player with 0 games, or 5, or 20. It's not about being fundamentally better or worse, it's about the knowledge that comes with experience.

I know when the laning phase is over. I know the value of warding. I know not to die for a turret, etc. etc. and, honestly, most new ranked players don't know those things. Again, this doesn't mean they suck, it just means they haven't had the opportunity to learn them yet, and that is not their fault. But I really don't want to be matched with or against them any more.

Anyway, I think there's a simple solution to this: Keep them in a separate queue, with each other, for their first, lets say 50 ranked games. Let them gain and lose real ranked Elo that counts, but don't dump them into the pool of players with more games than that until they reach the experience threshold. This may or may not be extremely difficult to do; I don't know how hard it would be to alter the matchmaking system in such a way.

I expect that, because Elo gain and loss is exaggerated for the first ranked games someone plays, this issue is effecting people from about 1100 rating to about 1300. Other players out there who have issues with this, feel free to post about it.

Anyway, Riot, I'd really appreciate a response on this. I know 1200 Elo players are probably not your top priority, I get that and it's fine. I'm not going to draw in new players with my leetness and esports celebrity, after all. But if it's even on your radar at all, it would be nice to know, and honestly even if you want to tell me "it's fine, l2p", it'd be better to know that you don't care and that this isn't going to change than not to know.

Best, most humble argument I've heard so far, in terms of getting Riot to change their "enter ranked queue automatically at 1200" policy.

I am around 1200 too, and I have as well worked hard for my rating (over 100 games).

I think the separate queue idea is great.

Wankeroo 12-05-2010 08:29 AM

I have been saying this for months. I have posted about 5 different threads about this situation. The solo ranked queue needs to be modified so that a player who is 300wins and 300losses is not playing with a player who is like 2wins and 2losses. It's ridiculous. The entry rank needs to be dynamic or the matchmaking needs to take the amount of wins and losses into consideration.


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