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-   -   Let's talk about Champ Select (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3220746)

Lyte 03-13-2013 02:16 PM

Let's talk about Champ Select
 
We want to take some time today to talk about Champion Select.

1) What are the problems?
2) What are some potential solutions?

The player behavior team has been running research on Champ Select and we agree that Champ Select is currently not a great environment and does not set teams up for success. We’ve all experienced Champ Selects that have erupted in arguments and had that sinking feeling that the game is lost before it even started. In saying this, there are plenty of Champ Select lobbies that are awesome and being positive and cooperative in every lobby does help; however, being positive by itself will not solve the problems in Champ Select and we don’t expect it to.

Solving player behavior problems in League of Legends requires collaboration between us and players and we haven’t done our part in Champ Select yet. As you can imagine, the problems (and any potential solutions) are complicated.

Something we’re seeing in our research is the influence of context.

Quote:

Consider a player that’s having a bad day at work and nothing seems to be going right. This player goes home, and loads up some League of Legends thinking, “I really just want to be a Mage today—maybe Annie.” They enter a lobby, and second pick calls “Annie.” The first pick says, “fk, I’m mid, I want Twisted Fate. I’m first pick.” The lobby crumbles in front of the player and he doesn’t even want to throw his suggestion into the mix—it’s a lost battle. The team enters the game, and the player plays poorly… and his teammates yell at him. “You suck at Support, why didn’t you choose a Tank.” The player snaps. He rages back.
But you know what?

This player's behavior isn’t toxic. He’s just like any one of us--we all have our bad days.

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Let’s break down this scenario into some of the problems that we’d like to solve in Champ Select:

1) Real-Life Context | This scenario really illustrates how context outside the game can influence behavior inside the game. Traditionally, game studios don’t design or solve for context. Or can they?

2) In-Game Context | This scenario illustrates the conflict between Pick Order and Call Order. When there are literally no guidelines, at best, half of the players believe in Pick Order and half believe in Call Order—we’ve created a situation where conflicts are expected rather than rare.

3) Time Pressure | From psychology, we know that time pressure sometimes twists context in hostile ways. Players in Champ Select are effectively trying to negotiate with each other over individual goals (i.e, what role I want to play this game) that overlap with team goals (i.e, given this set of teammates, what’s the best strategy for us to win?). Studies suggest that throwing time pressure in there is like adding fuel to the fire—the end result is more disagreements and lower quality of negotiations.

4) Cognitive Biases | Hopefully davin will talk more about this, but people show cognitive bias in many ways. For example, many of us enter Champ Select thinking we are the best at whatever role we want to play—this is statistically impossible; however, there’s no reason to trust any of the strangers in the lobby. This really isn’t the players’ fault, it’s simply being human.

These are some major problems with Champ Select that we’ve identified in our research. So what’s next? A lot of players have suggested the following:

1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.
2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team
3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.

What are some pros and cons to these ideas? Would they work for League?

meadow 03-13-2013 02:19 PM

1)

I think that people should remember and attempt to forget their real life worries when they step into a game. A game is meant to be fun, not to tear your entire story out (that is fine, but please not ingame) in one of the chat lobbies or such. I've seen that people are really understanding in some chat lobbies and can talk for a very long time.

There isn't much in my view that you, as a company can do to lessen the effects that the summoner will take with them into the game. The feelings or events that happened that day will remain. However, it should not be used as a free card or jail break to allow you to do anything you please either.

2)

I do not believe in either. My standard text is this in ranked select: Greetings! Preferring lane from best to least: Support/Mid/Jungle/Top/ADC

Do you see above here pick order or call order? Sure, there are people in my ranked matches that calls or even forces "pick order" but when they see the above they respond differently.

Such as player 1 (first pick) first said: I'M MID. And then I follow with the above text and he surprisingly said after: "I'm sorry, I can actually mid best and top slightly worser if someone would've liked mid". Pretty big of a change isn't it?

3)

Yes, I completely agree with that especially in ranked selection. But first in blind pick games: You've 90 seconds to choose a champion and discuss with your allies WITHOUT seeing your enemy picks.

But in ranked select, that flips it immediately because you need to agree on bans, agree on that summoners go this lane, disagree or agree on counters etc. It really tensions it up to the point of stressing. You're playing with strangers with very limited time to come to an unified decision to win the game.

4)

Bias comes from the fact that perhaps if you play alot of Top Lane, you think you are good on Top lane, but in randoms its impossible to know if the players are actually good at what kind of role they want or lane they want. Together with limited time its near impossible but to trust your allies. Exception if two people want the same role and argues.

1) Vote Kick | Players want the ability to vote kick toxic players from Champ Select.

I've played Dota 2, and what I've seen and also experienced was if the enemy team was particularly stronger people WOULD beg in all chat to remake, kick the player (innocent OR not) until they could not be penalized for leaving the game. The question is wheter if the toxicity level would increase of games or if the option could be used honest at all!

2) WoW Dungeon Finder | Players want the ability to queue up for a particular role like “Healer” and “DPS” and placed into a Champ Select with a team

In my eyes that would be very, very great. But what about people that just inputs all the roles just to get a faster queue? Its subject to griefing that is for sure, but then again how does one actually defines a role as being good into it?

For example, as you've seen in my ranked select text above I'm best in Support and least in ADC but can still play all roles. Should I really be forced to only "one" role select?

It might work for LoL, but you should get the option to choose multiple and then get "honored" for the role you've played well instead of the usual honors.

3) Prisoner’s Island | Players want matchmaking to pair toxic players with toxic players, and positive players with positive players.

What would you do, if you get thrown into it unjustified? What if you had "raged" once in your lifetime because of RL issues? Would you be forever or even a tiny part of Prisoner Island and never be able to come out? What if you continue to rage because other people keep raging at you for no apparent reason? The Prisoner Island idea might work for some, but to throw in people who have not yet been convicted is too fast. Perhaps for people who has been banned atleast 3 times or so before they are permanent banned?

I remember in Warcraft 3's mod you even had a "naming ranking system" so the server operator could define if a player was a troll or not. That was made by the community by the way at that time. I can't find the website now but...

Anyway to sum it up:

1: Role preferences is a good thing. It doesn't say how good you are in the role so I propose that we get a side-honor system for that

2: Toxic players must get the chance and they still have the chance currently to reform. They should however perhaps get better feedback to do so?

3. The time allowed to discuss and do things in normal games is good. However it might just be too low in Ranked games... It should still remain competitively however so that both teams can still formulate a counter or better ideas.

4. The meta should not be enforced, wheter pick or call priorities. Players should be open to play whatever role they desire but not at the expense of the game failing. You're all here to win or not?!

5. The first option is not desirable, as I've said... I've played in Dota 2 with that and atleast 40% of the games that I tried to play were aborted. Ofcourse you can pull out the hat with "but 99% of all statistics are pulled from a hat". I dare you to play Dota 2 as you can get a copy from almost everywhere for nothing to just play it and come back here commenting on their system.

The second option is desirable and perhaps a good fit, but how would you implement it?

In my eyes, the third option of Prisoner Island is the worst idea. People will not reform in that. Ofcourse they can meet their equal trollers...

6. DO NOT SHOW YOUR ALLIES YOUR OWN STATS BEFORE THE MATCH HAS STARTED. This does not include the border colors for previous season, or your honor badge. What I meant is that a certain website called "LoLking" has made matches several times harder to play because of summoners distrusting players before they even started to show how good they are.

7. See Mr Schtiffles below me about 2)

8. Last edit I guess, but I still like to see champ select and after game chatlogs in the Tribunal. ^_^

CommandShockwave 03-13-2013 02:19 PM

I'm just afraid to queue up because of people arguing >_<

Edit:

1) I feel like this one could be too abused by people who throw the word 'trolling' around too willy-nilly. Being first pick shouldn't be something you're afraid of. 'omg hes took my champ kick him he did it on purpose'. Not to mention it'd be scary to queue up in a promo series if it meant you could be knocked out before you even played.

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2) This could work imo, but at the cost of it being seen as Riot enforcing the meta. It'd have to use a broader set of roles to choose from, not just AP, ADC, Supp, Top, Jungle.

Idea 1: Queuing up for a 'lane'. The system could put a solid amount of emphasis on avoiding grouping those who queued for the same lane together, rather than by role of 'adc, ap' etc. This way players wouldn't be pigeonholed into a single spot or champion (same champ select rules etc), and they'd be less likely to bash heads over who goes where. Essentially it's adding another parameter to matchmaking, kind of like how you added a wins parameter a while back.

-One issue with this is that since it wouldn't necessarily be forced on the system as criteria to meet, when those 2 guys who queued for mid DO get in a game together... well, consequences could be dire.

-Another issue is queue time increases, which I personally feel wouldn't be an issue, but to those who've been spoiled by LoL's ridiculously fast queues, it could be painful. As someone who's waited in hour long DPS queues, LoL queues were a dream come true.

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3) Scary, please no.

Chess435 03-13-2013 02:19 PM

How about when two teams are queued together, before the bans begin, each team is given a couple minutes to discuss strategy and picks? This would take a lot of the time constraints off of being rushed to make a pick. Players also need a way to demonstrate how good they are with a particular champion/role, rather than just having to take their word for it.

My Boy Meep 03-13-2013 02:19 PM

I agree with #1.

lSacredl 03-13-2013 02:20 PM

I say we get something like the WoW dungeon finder and players get extra IP or whatever for queing as support.

X1zz3l 03-13-2013 02:20 PM

The problem is the playerbase, not the selection itself
Srsly, why do people hate and flame so much just because they can't play what they want ._.

Critkeeper 03-13-2013 02:20 PM

Last pick on each side needs to be blind to the enemy team, and that should relieve a lot of player frustration and toxicity.

Laxtras 03-13-2013 02:21 PM

#2 WoW Dungeon Finder

Zerglinator 03-13-2013 02:21 PM

What if people could switch their position in champ select similar to switching champions?


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