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-   -   @Riot: Poppy and Her Problems. (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3206583)

MasterofSFL 03-09-2013 07:57 AM

@Riot: Poppy and Her Problems.
 
As of right now, Poppy is almost non-existent within League. Only a few willing players utilize her. I being one of those very few.

So my question to you Riot (And by extension also the community) is what are you going to do about it?

I have played my fair share of Poppy games, I have taken her everywhere from Top, Jungle and Bot (Kill Lane and Support). I have had my great games, I have had my bad games and then I have had my "Damn it, this sucks," games.

Over and over I find that Poppy excels at being an Anti-Carry. Her ability to single out and fight one person at a time gives her free range to do just about whatever she wants to whoever she chooses. But...Over and over I also find that she is fundamentally flawed in how her kit goes about doing just that.


This flaw I like to think is Multi-fold. First, she wants to be a Top/Jungler, but she has No sustain/harass for top that would allow her stay there and she is unable to gank from Jungle without losing out on the gold she needs dearly.

Being unable to Jungle/Top reliably means she is only left with three other positions on a Team. Mid is out of the question and Poppy is not a Melee carry. This leaves support, but alas, she still needs a substantial amount of gold to get her to her Mid and Late Game.

Second, her Kit makes it impossible to play her effectively unless your opponents make mistakes.

One of the things that makes Poppy so great is her Mobility and Her Charge. But the way these have been implemented on her force her into a difficult situation. Use her Haste and Charge now and waste the stun and ability to get away, or wait till an opportunity arises.

In most cases, you're not getting off a stun unless the fight is in Jungle or River. With her role being that of the Anti-Carry, being unable to stick to her target effectively and remove them from the fight diminishes greatly Poppy's utility to her team.

Third, Poppy is a AD/AP/Hybrid/Bruiser/Assassin. Her kit wants her to be a Bruiser (Devastating Blow, Paragon, Valiant Fighter), But it also wants her to be a Nuker (Devastating Blow, Heroic Charge, Diplomatic), while at the same time trying to get her to be an Auto Attacker (Paragon, Devastating Blow).

This goes back to her inability to reliably accumulate gold. To be a Nuker, Poppy needs to be able to constantly afford an item or two when she Ports back to base. If she can't, her damage sharply falls off and she is unable to ensure a kill. To be a Bruiser, Poppy needs to be able to stick to her Target to the point of forcing them to fight her. With no proper way of initiating on a target and staying with them, Her getting tanky only means getting kited.

There are plenty of other smaller problems that Poppy has but these I consider to be the most prominent and problematic. So I reiterate my question, what would you Riot change on Poppy in-order to allow her to go from a Risky Niche pick, to becoming a reliable champion who can fulfill her role consistently?


I have my ideas (obviously), but before I put them out I would like to identify what makes Poppy feel like Poppy and attempt to use that to paint of a picture of where she can be placed and the fixes we can do to achieve that.


Poppy's feel comes from her "I don't give a F**K" attitude when it comes to her play style. Her Ultimate allows her to ignore everyone and tunnel vision on the one person that matters. This essentially means that Poppy's Ultimate needs to stay in-order for her to still have that "Poppy" feel to her.

Additionally this also means Her diving nature (That is, her want to jump in headfirst) must remain intact, So she also Must Keep her Charge.

Lastly, the "OMG" factor that she gives when she lands her combo is essential to receiving that satisfaction that you are a Blue Cannon that strikes terror into your enemies and you are "about to go off."

So in the end she still needs to be able to initiate a fight on her terms and still throw out that scary damage that she is Known for.

----------The Rework------------

As we already discussed, Poppy wants to be a Top/Jungler, but her unreliable ganks and inability to harass or sustain effectively shut her out of these roles. But to give her sustain within her Kit...Wouldn't really be all that "Poppy." Poppy doesn't fight long drawn out Battles, she goes in, Kicks ass and then has a beer with her fellows quickly afterwards. That. Screams. Jungler.

So, we make her Ganks more effective.

But how can we do this?

Well, her Charge already can be used in a "Best Case Scenario," that is, you are lucky to get them next to a wall. But trying to Gank any lane and have the Target next to a wall is difficult (and basically Impossible Mid.) So why don't we allow her Charge to stun without the wall, or at least, make it easier?

Woah, I know what you are saying, but here me out. We already have a mechanism in Poppy's kit that already makes you think, "Hey, why not?" And what I am talking about is her Paragon Of Demacia. When you activate it you gain a Burst of Speed, why can't we have that Mechanically (And Thematically) translate that into additional momentum or force?

Here are Three Versions, All Require Paragon to be active:

Paragon of Demacia:

Passive: Upon being hit or attacking an enemy, Poppy's armor and damage are increased for 5 seconds. This effect can stack 10 times.

Active: Poppy gains max stacks of Paragon of Demacia and her movement speed is increased for 5 seconds. Heroic Charge's Range is Increase by X (Per Level)
=======================================

Paragon of Demacia:

Passive: Upon being hit or attacking an enemy, Poppy's armor and damage are increased for 5 seconds. This effect can stack 10 times.

Active: Poppy gains max stacks of Paragon of Demacia and her movement speed is increased for 5 seconds. Heroic Charge's Push is Increased by X (Per Level)
=======================================

Heroic Charge:
Active: Poppy charges at an enemy and carries them further. The initial impact deals a small amount of magic damage, and if they collide with terrain, her target will take a high amount of magic damage and be stunned for 1.5 seconds. If Paragon is Active, the Target is stunned at the charge for X (This stacks with the Collision)
=======================================


These Three versions all have their Ups and their Downs but each one addresses Poppy's inability to get a reliable stun on the target or Remove them from the fight and force them to Fight or Flee.

Let's start with Number one: Increasing the Range.

Allowing an increase range solves numerous Problems Poppy has, most notably, being Kited at the beginning of the fight. Currently the range is just long enough to count as a gap closer, but just short enough to not reach high value targets. Allowing the activation of Paragon to increase the range substantially for a limited time solves just about every problem put fourth before.

It allows her to reach Targets in line that are near walls, but were previously to far to capitalize on. It gives her the ability to attach herself to the target she wants, when she wants. It also adds a layer to Poppy's Play, you can now blow both cooldowns knowing you will get something out of it, instead of knowing that it will ultimately be a waste.

This is my most preferred change.

Second: Increasing the Push.
As discussed with the Range change, the Push also solves many of the problems I laid down. The difference between this and the Range change is that now Poppy can Single a Target out of a fight, or hit them into the wall where ever, effectively making it a 1v1.

The problem that arises from this is her ultimate giving her a free 8 seconds of "Fight me and Die."

This is my least preferred change.

Third: A Guaranteed stun.

Out of all three, this one is the one I feel will give Poppy a net neutral gain for whatever it is that must be taken away (or changed) to make it happen.

Here's why. We already have a base 1.5 Stun if you hit the wall. We can do various things with the stun that is attached to this skill. We can give it a Flat stun .4 or .5 and make it a 2 second if it connects.

We can Halve the Stun, make it apply the first half when you hit and the second Half when you connect with the wall. Still being 1.5 if you hit without Paragon, but still keeping it at 1.5 if you do, essentially making it so that you are still stopping them long enough to do something, but still not making as effective use of the skill if you had waited.

Out of the three, I am indifferent to this one.

Now that I explained these simple changes, I would like to add one more, one that is more drastic, but maybe could work.

We can remove the Knockback and stun all together on Heroic Charge and make it a simple Gap Closer (which would let you simply jump to someone) and then give it a more powerful effect once you activate Paragon.

So now it would Look like this:


Paragon of Demacia:
Passive: Upon being hit or attacking an enemy, Poppy's armor and damage are increased for 5 seconds. This effect can stack 10 times.

Active: Poppy gains max stacks of Paragon of Demacia and her movement speed is increased for 5 seconds.Heroic Charge also Knocks Back X (X being based on Level, but it also giving a larger push in the end.

Heroic Charge:
Active: Poppy charges at an enemy and carries them further. The initial impact deals a small amount of magic damage. If Paragon of Demacia is Active and if they collide with terrain, her target will take a high amount of magic damage and be stunned for X


This would give Poppy Additional Burst when played right, as well as a good stun, while taking away the entire ordeal that is accidentally pushing someone away from your team.

This one I would be eager to see, but I a skeptical of how it would play out.



Changing Poppy's kit to one of these puts her in the position to Jungle and Gank. Now with her ability to get a stream of gold that is necessary to play her, what do we want to turn her into? A Bruiser? An Assassin? Is she AP or AD? What about Hybrid?

Refer to what I had said previously, Poppy is a "don't give a ****, Fear me" kind of play style. While some bruisers do embody this, this is almost entirely what an assassin train of thought. Here's why: Poppy is not a natural born tank and she does not like prolonged fighting. She wants to find her target, do as much damage as she can within the shortest time frame then move on to support the team on other targets. So her kit needs to promote being a damage dealer and Building that damage.

With her set of skills she has, and the way they all interact, I would say that a clear AD or AP is what she should be. Both are fun and both work on her, but trying to build straight Hybrid is difficult.

So what I propose is switching around and taking away a few things on her in order to do this. The main drawback to an AD build on Poppy is that Devastating Blow only functions off AP and the Opponents health and it deals magic damage. This makes Lifesteal a mediocre stat, as her high damaging skill gives her nothing back, it also makes it hard to buy Pen for her.. So why can't we make it so it deals Physical or Magic damage based on your AP or AD (Or the highest between Physical or Magic?)

Your builds can be more streamlined now, with buys specific to each build, this also has the effect of making her less reliant on trying to balance between being a Nuker or a High DPS champion

With all this additional Power added to her Kit I think it is only fair to take a few unnecessary things from her. If Devastating Blow where to gain Physical damage, it might be fair to Lower or remove the AD passive on Paragon. We should also make the Paragon Shorter, from 5 seconds to 3 and Increase it's Mobility to match, this gives Poppy more Initiation (which is what we wanted) but less Chasing Power. This and Lowering or Moving Diplomatic increase in Damage (which few Players use anyway.)


Hopefully this provoked some thought on Poppy's issues, and hopefully I hit most of them on the head. Feedback welcome, My favorite Blue Girl needs help!

Shiny Machop 03-09-2013 07:59 AM

Make W Stacks Worth Something I Like Her Kit and I Been Playing Poppy Since Season One theres just something about her that makes her a weak pick

Xtazed 03-09-2013 08:02 AM

i like poppy, don't change her please.

Cynicatt 03-09-2013 08:08 AM

Poppy's very strong. True, you have to match her up against something manageable top, but that's not hard to do in draft pick. Late game she's powerful, and if the enemy team has something kinda useless like... say... a Karma on it, you have free reign over the the enemy team as soon as that cc-less enemy shows up.
Diplomunity doesn't have a short duration by any means, it's long enough to destroy the adc and leave the enemy team crippled while you use the tail end of your ult to smash on their apc or whatever you like.
There are a lot of champions that have a tough early game, but poppy doesn't need help. She's just niche and hard to learn to be good at, which I believe is why you don't see much of her.

p.s. OP is too long.

AA247 03-09-2013 08:15 AM

poppy will never be buffed because of her ult. Why? Its so broken that they had to trash her early game because a feed or late game poppy has 0 counter play. CC? I hope all of your team has hard cc or else she gona ult that one person without it

MasterofSFL 03-09-2013 08:22 AM

Bump

MasterofSFL 03-09-2013 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renegade Rook (Hozzászólás 35419938)
Poppy's very strong. True, you have to match her up against something manageable top, but that's not hard to do in draft pick. Late game she's powerful, and if the enemy team has something kinda useless like... say... a Karma on it, you have free reign over the the enemy team as soon as that cc-less enemy shows up.
Diplomunity doesn't have a short duration by any means, it's long enough to destroy the adc and leave the enemy team crippled while you use the tail end of your ult to smash on their apc or whatever you like.
There are a lot of champions that have a tough early game, but poppy doesn't need help. She's just niche and hard to learn to be good at, which I believe is why you don't see much of her.

p.s. OP is too long.


I know what Poppy is capable of, most people who have seen Poppy know what she is capable of. The problem has been and always will be (until she is fixed) is getting there. She is extremely snow-bally, that is one of her problems. Once she's fed, it's almost game over.

We can take away some of that excessive power and shift it to making her more reliable. Why don't we do it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by AA247 (Hozzászólás 35420085)
poppy will never be buffed because of her ult. Why? Its so broken that they had to trash her early game because a feed or late game poppy has 0 counter play. CC? I hope all of your team has hard cc or else she gona ult that one person without it

Buffed and Changed are two different things. Her ultimate is what Makes her, but that doesn't mean there aren't ways to Diminish it's effectiveness (Lower Timer or Less Damage increase).

Poppy has a very small place in League and it's time she got the treatment she deserves for being one of the earlier champions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xtazed (Hozzászólás 35419792)
i like poppy, don't change her please.


I love Karma, that doesn't mean I don't understand her problems either and why she needs a change.

Liking something doesn't mean you have to deny their faults.

MasterofSFL 03-09-2013 08:40 AM

Bump.

Dromar421 03-09-2013 08:59 AM

bump

MasterofSFL 03-09-2013 09:08 AM

Bump


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