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-   -   Advance Zilean Techs/Builds and Counter/Anti-Counter (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=313747)

ReWnD 10-28-2010 01:41 AM

Advance Zilean Techs/Builds and Counter/Anti-Counter
 
So you wanna be a better Zilean hmmm? I'll cut right to the chase.

Pros:
Fantastic Early Game
Good Support
Survivability

Cons:
Weak
Burst
Bad Early Game Mana

Your best advantage over any other champion is your speed. The ability to speed yourself up almost as fast as Ghost gives you survivability and harassment tech. Also, the double side effect of putting it on your enemies helps teammates catch up to finish up the kill.

Your worse nightmare......is magic resist. Yeah, Yeah I know, "OF COURSE DUMMY THAT'S WHY ITS CALLED MAGIC RESIST!". But really think about it. If you did the simple math of things you can already figure out Zilean's bombs have a HIGH ratio of damage loss when you add magic resist to the mix.
So lets say Zilean's Q does 270 damage and he can do it twice meaning you would deal 540. Bombs hurt don't they? Well if you start adding magic resist into the mix, lets say 75 more magic resist. Next time Zilean's bomb hurts you it does 195, make it twice and it only does 390. What? 150 damage loss...
You shouldn't be worry at the fact OMG ZILEAN DOES 2 BOMBS! You should remember Zilean ONLY has 2 bombs. Build up in magic resist vs Zilean makes his only attack useless vs champions, also adding Banshee's Veil would make a Groovy Zilean into a Emo Zilean.

How would I go about countering magic resist Mr. ReWnD? Well i'll tell you little voice speaking this in the person's mind that is reading this right now.

Pre-Game Judgements:
- Even before the match starts and your in the champion select screen look at the champions other people pick
- If you see a very heavily AP sided team it's best to have Zilean sit this one out.
- If you see a very heavily DPS sided team, bring that old man off the bench and have him play
- You should only play Zilean if you are the only AP or if there is an another one, 3 might be pushing it, depending on the type of champion being used. Try to use your judgement on this one.
- Why be the only AP Champion on the team? Well you count yourself twice as AP and Support, Zilean can take on 2v1 lane if someone jungles, and can take mid if he wanted to for farming
- Also, since you already do massive damage so early in the game, the enemy team is in a bind where they have to choose either to get MR or AR, MR for annoy bombs or AR for every other attack that isn't magical. They usually choose AR over most things because your team has more AD than AP, since they have no MR however, you take the advantage of screwing them over because they didn't get MR. Now they get MR and they used too much gold on armor its too late for them catch up on any offensive items.

Early Game
- If you see that there is many Anti-AP champions on the other team, its best to play a more supportive Zilean, I'm not talking about a bunch of support items, cooldowns and locket work fine with added AP to still farm and still do something in a fight.

Mid/End Game
- So the other team got magic resist huh? You can go both ways with a Abyssal Scepter or Void Staff depending on how much magic resist they got. I never really have to get a Void Staff most of the time so Abyssal Specter works fine.
- If you feel squishy, its best to get a Rod of Ages or Frozen Heart, your pick of AP or Cooldown

Advance Techs for Zilean:
Double Bombing Minions:
Waiting until a minion is about to die from 1 bomb and causing the 2nd bomb is suppose to blow up goes off as well making both bombs blow up at the same time dealing heavy damage in one hit. Zilean's Farming tool, he can easily take down a 20 minion mob with 2 bombs and make profit just like that.
But, he can also use it against enemy champions.
Again waiting until a minion is at low enough HP, but have to wait until an enemy is near his little dieing minion, you double bomb the minion and the enemy takes the AOE damage. Sexy harassment, and you take the extra farm money if you kill other surrounding minions along with the damage to the enemy. Double Rainbow.

E, Q, W, Q, E :
Quickest way to harass and make the enemy take a good amount of damage without have a problem getting backfired on. Time Warp towards the enemy, making them run like a wuss, you run faster than them so you can usually catch up. Put a bomb, rewind, put another bomb, Time warp to run away without a scratch, or Time Warp to slow down the enemy for a gank and throw on an ignite to deal some extra damage before you get away.

Surprise Bomb:
If you're against a melee champion and you really want to piss them off, when they about to last hit a minion, throw a bomb on the minion they about to finish off to surprise them with a face full of bomb. Also, surprising them with a last second double bomb could give you the kill.

Dramatic Revive:
You know when you ult someone and they don't die? Such a waste :( This takes some good timing, All you have to do is really wait until someone is about to die for them to get the ult, since the ult is an instant cast (as long as they are in range). Sure it sounds simple, but if you miss a second or 2, the ally could be dead before you decide to put it on. I usually wait until the ally is around 100-200 HP before I throw it on them. Just to be dramatic....

Rewind is your best friend:
Remember if your ult is on cooldown, use W when you have the time to and have enough to keep doing it, you never know when your team needs the ult again and having it back up as fast as possible makes the other team think you still have it on cooldown. You can get it back up in about half the time at level 6. Imagine the cooldown with rewind at level 18? Quick. Another good thing is if you have Tears of Goddess if helps that out also.

My Zilean Mastery Build:
9/0/21
http://www.fieldsofjustice.com/maste...wZuPPqylewlZal
Switch between Teleport and Ghost depending on what you have.
Presence of a Master is not needed on Zilean, summoner skills aren't that important to him to always use it the second it comes up, it only makes it more convenient

Summoner Spells:
I have 3 different levels of which spells you should use so you can get a feel for Zilean if you are still learning him

Newbie:
Clarity: Zilean has a bad mana problem, you need to get used to the fact he needs to go back a lot, Clarity helps with spamming.

Ghost: Run. Very Fast. You can get away and get to places very quickly with movement speed reaching around 650ish.

Casual:
Ignite/Clarity: If you still have a mana problem in early game keep the clarity, ignite will help you finish off those lucky people that "JUST GET AWAY IN TIME".

Flash: Starts to make you rely more on your Time Warp rather than Ghosting to get away from bad situations, Flash is just a back up still in case you're in a tight situation or you need that little one inch to throw a bomb on someone.

Advanced:
Ignite/Cleanse: You finally know how to be more conservative with your skills and stay in lane long enough to get 1k when you first go back in Laning Phase. So having one of these skills are better in some situations than having Clarity.

Teleport: You can judge distance in team fights meaning you won't be first target or be in the middle of the fight, and use your Time warp every chance you get. Use teleport to farm, global map awareness, and a quick gank if you can sneak in a teleport on a minion during a fight. Teleport and Time Warp means you are basically everywhere.

Rune Page Suggestions:
Magic Pent
Cooldown
Mana Regen
AP

Always get Magic Pent and 2 out of the 3 other ones to make it more focus rather than variety.

Zilean Item Builds:
- Every person should start getting used to the fact that most items are situational.
- Builds don't necessarily mean that it the best one or that it will work all the time.
- Knowing that, here is a couple of builds to start and build off with experience and knowledge.

Newbie Zilean Build:
Starting Item:
Doran's Ring + HP pot

Items: (Order Suggested)
Tears of Goddess
Boots of Speed
Spirit Visage
Merc Treads/Sorc Boots
Rod of Ages
Archangel's Staff
Frozen Heart/Zonya's Ring

Casual Zilean Build:
Starting Item:
Meki pendant + 2 HP pots

Items: (Order Suggested)
Tears of Goddess
Boots of Speed
Rod of Ages
Zonya's Ring
Archangel's Staff
Frozen Heart

Advanced Zilean Build:
Starting Item:
Mana Crystal + 2 HP pots

Items: (Order Suggested)
Blasting Wand
Tears of Goddess
Boots of Speed
Zonya's Ring
Sorc Boots
Archangel's Staff
Abyssal Specter/Frozen Heart
Guardian Angel

Item Suggestions for certain situations:
Enemy Heavily AP - Spirit Visage/Abyssal Scepter
Enemy Heavily MR - Abyssal Scepter/Void Staff
Enemy Heavily AD - Warden's Mail/Thornmail/Guardian's Angel
Enemy Heavily Melee - Sunfire Cape/Warden's Mail
Enemy Heavily Ranged - Warden's Mail/Frozen Heart
Enemy Heavily Crowd Control Based - Merc Treads/Quicksilver Sash/Banshees' Veil

TL; DR
Zilean's counter is Magic Resist
Anti-Counter: Have Zilean be the only AP on the team or make yourself support for DPS Champs

Well's thats about it, if theres something I missed or you need to ask a question or suggest don't hesitate to ask.

FireFa11 10-28-2010 06:06 AM

Why do newbies start with Dorans ring, Casual start with Meki, and Advanced start with Sapphire?

0Wolfheart0 10-28-2010 08:17 AM

Meh. Magic resist affects Zilean's damage in the same way it does to every other magic dmg dealer. Just because you use two sources of damage (the two bombs) to nuke someone it doesn't mean mr reduces your damage more than with just one source of damage. Very easy math example : your bomb deals 250 damage, enemy has 50% magic dmg reduction. You use two bombs, dealing 250 dmg after reduction. If you had to cast only one bomb which did 500 dmg, you'd be hitting for 250 again. I know this is obvious, but it seems to me that you're implying that magic resistance shuts harder Zilean in comparison to other casters. If I missread, I'm sorry, ignore this >.<

Anyway, this will help a lot newbs or people trying out Zil, but I don't see anything "advanced" here :p good work

ReWnD 10-28-2010 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireFa11 (Hozzászólás 3721322)
Why do newbies start with Dorans ring, Casual start with Meki, and Advanced start with Sapphire?

Get used to Zilean's mana problem, bombs do get increasely mana costly as you level it up, and rewinding the bomb doesn't help either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0Wolfheart0 (Hozzászólás 3722568)
Meh. Magic resist affects Zilean's damage in the same way it does to every other magic dmg dealer. Just because you use two sources of damage (the two bombs) to nuke someone it doesn't mean mr reduces your damage more than with just one source of damage. Very easy math example : your bomb deals 250 damage, enemy has 50% magic dmg reduction. You use two bombs, dealing 250 dmg after reduction. If you had to cast only one bomb which did 500 dmg, you'd be hitting for 250 again. I know this is obvious, but it seems to me that you're implying that magic resistance shuts harder Zilean in comparison to other casters. If I missread, I'm sorry, ignore this >.<

Anyway, this will help a lot newbs or people trying out Zil, but I don't see anything "advanced" here :p good work

I kind of am implying that it Magic Resist does shut down Zilean more than other casters

I can't really say anything else for Zilean, he's restricted on all the skills he has even though they do have low cooldoown there isnt much else to do but to keep bombing, I don't expect Zilean to be as complex as Shaco or Annie or any other champion that have many variety to the way they are played and built like.

All can say if you want to be a more advanced Zilean, mind game.... a lot....
For Example:
Let's say you are going up against a shieldly type character like Shen, and he has flint or whatever it's called and he puts it up every time you try to put on a bomb. Well make him think you are going to put a bomb on him by running up to him, hes either going to dash away or put up his shield, wait till the shield is down and put the two bombs on, since your cooldowns are low it wont matter if you waste a Time Warp to make it look like your going to run up to him, just gotta sell it

Scattaman 10-29-2010 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReWnD (Hozzászólás 3726509)

All can say if you want to be a more advanced Zilean, mind game.... a lot....
For Example:
Let's say you are going up against a shieldly type character like Shen, and he has flint or whatever it's called and he puts it up every time you try to put on a bomb. Well make him think you are going to put a bomb on him by running up to him, hes either going to dash away or put up his shield, wait till the shield is down and put the two bombs on, since your cooldowns are low it wont matter if you waste a Time Warp to make it look like your going to run up to him, just gotta sell it

A good Shen would just wait until the bomb is actually on his head... the bombs take like 2 seconds to explode anyway so why would Shen rush to put on his shield?!

A better strategy would actually let him waste his shield on one bomb then rewind and place the 2nd bomb... that way at least you got a bomb off on him...

Same goes for Mordekaiser, wait until his shield is low and his abilities on cooldown to use your bombs..

Larson McMurphy 10-29-2010 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scattaman (Hozzászólás 3748492)
A good Shen would just wait until the bomb is actually on his head... the bombs take like 2 seconds to explode anyway so why would Shen rush to put on his shield?!

A better strategy would actually let him waste his shield on one bomb then rewind and place the 2nd bomb... that way at least you got a bomb off on him...

Same goes for Mordekaiser, wait until his shield is low and his abilities on cooldown to use your bombs..

I agree with this. The Shen would have to be pretty noob to jump the gun on the feint. The rewind tactic should work, though it'll use up a lot of mana early on. Anyway, this is a good opportunity to bring up a list of champs that can nullify bomb harassment. It would be useful for Zilean players to be aware of them.

Shen - feint
Udyr - turtle stance
Yi - meditate
Malphite - passive
Mordekaiser - passive

Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Does anyone know of any others? Also I don't know if Gangplanks remove scurvy will cleanse the bomb away or not if anyone knows the answer to that.

knobcreek 10-29-2010 04:08 PM

Sion can ignore bombs pretty well. With AP he can absorb one and part of the second.

Amaterasuomikami 10-29-2010 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larson McMurphy (Hozzászólás 3749288)
I agree with this. The Shen would have to be pretty noob to jump the gun on the feint. The rewind tactic should work, though it'll use up a lot of mana early on. Anyway, this is a good opportunity to bring up a list of champs that can nullify bomb harassment. It would be useful for Zilean players to be aware of them.

Shen - feint
Udyr - turtle stance
Yi - meditate
Malphite - passive
Mordekaiser - passive

Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Does anyone know of any others? Also I don't know if Gangplanks remove scurvy will cleanse the bomb away or not if anyone knows the answer to that.

Hey now, sometimes you just jump the gun on Feint. I know ive done it a few times and cursed myself!

ReWnD 11-01-2010 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larson McMurphy (Hozzászólás 3749288)
Shen - feint
Udyr - turtle stance
Yi - meditate
Malphite - passive
Mordekaiser - passive

Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Does anyone know of any others? Also I don't know if Gangplanks remove scurvy will cleanse the bomb away or not if anyone knows the answer to that.

GP's scurvy was nurfed badly so it can't eat away a bomb, same for the cleanse nerf, ever since season 1 came out

More people you should avoid wasting your mana on,
Siv (Late Game)
Morgana (Sometimes)
Healing Champs can cause a problem sometimes, its kind of a balance, you waste mana harassing and they waste mana healing

Xtchizobr 11-01-2010 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireFa11 (Hozzászólás 3721322)
Why do newbies start with Dorans ring, Casual start with Meki, and Advanced start with Sapphire?

noobs want and need the health while understanding that the mp5 is almost as good as Meki. their experience tells them they will have to work hard to stay alive while laning.

casuals take Meki because they want to start charging their Tear asap, and the mp5 with two health pots is all they really need during the first six levels or so during which they expect to accumulate 1k gold to finish Tear and get Boots1.

some "advanced" start with Sapphire because they have mp5 runes and masteries and therefore don't really need the 7mp5 from Meki. the Sapphire can become a Catalyst (for RoA asap or Bveil later) or a Tear for Archangel. it's a versatile item, and does more good for someone who has plenty mp5 already.

those "advanced" people who took CDR blues will still consider Meki anyway, though they could probably still swing it with a Sapphire depending on how productive their farming is.

real, confident "advanced" players start with a Tome and rush to a Mejai. they don't expect to die often, if at all, and they intend to be aggressive in melting faces during the end of laning and mid-game.

alternatively, for those champions who are perhaps a little squishy but don't rely on mana during laning, the red Elixir and some health pots should last through laning until you have more abilities under you and some money to start your build with. Teemo is an excellent example of this tactic.


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