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-   -   Mpen, Bulwark, AP in general and such (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3084355)

GurkenMAN 02-04-2013 02:00 AM

Mpen, Bulwark, AP in general and such
 
Since S3 (although flatpen now comes after %) i feel the early penitems- sorcs and HG are now quite weak. (-5 Mpen each)

I was someone who built HG in S2 already and liked it but now it seems quite underwhelming for its price- because of the nerf to flatpen which only is compensated if you build voidstaff (so to say- veeerrry lategame).
It got a nice upgrade now- sure, but i nevertheless feel that ad-casters are now far superior in terms of damage and often comparable in utility.
And they got BC which helps all your ads and on top they are often more tanky by nature...

Although MR got more expensive (as armor did) and removal of FoN i think the bulwark also is a large reason for APs to fall off veeery fast now compared to S2. 30MR Aura just counters too much of your pen and all melees (exc poppy) get MR/lvl which makes your pen (seen in %bonusdmg) weaker with every level.
Not to talk about the HP-stacking which makes all bursty APs very situational to use now...

Anyone feels the same that going AD-Caster is really much better now throughout the course of a game?

Acanthus 02-04-2013 03:16 AM

I never really noticed falling off that hard, but I'd been playing a lot of Xerath (what is magic resistance), so maybe not applicable. Well, no, not true, just before my trip, I started to revisit Ahri, and got some damn good returns. It's true that ad begins to eclipse you late game, but that's mostly the adcs rather than ad casters. I tend to kick Talon in the face because I have better utility. My issue with Zed tends more to be that he can what amounts to suicide bomb the adc due to the nature of his ult (which makes me shift to making him a bigger priority target than the enemy adc), not that his output is better than mine.

Anyway, unlike FoN, Bulwark is veeeeery difficult to achieve early-mid game. It's more expensive. By contrast, Void Staff is inexpensive. If you see it coming (which you should), you can build it faster than them by far.

draydurmil 02-07-2013 04:13 PM

if u look at char stats armor/lvl gains reach around 70 to 80 per character as mr/lvl only stays at 30 for adr mages tanks only bruisers get mr/lvl gains. magic pen runes would already give u around 15 to 19 sorc shoes 15 plus HG 15 thats already 45 to 49 magic pen already not counting void staff and abyssal scepter.

Keitterman 02-08-2013 11:40 AM

I notice that mages tend to talk about their damage as single target, but almost all mages do multi-target damage, where as AD casters are more single target. Additionally, the mages normally do their damage from range, instead of like, Pantheon where he's got to be in their face to do his heartseeker.

I think that's a pretty significant difference, and why the bulwark is a good counter. You're hitting multiple targets, so they are defending multiple targets.

In a late game teamfight, a mage is going to drop a carpet of damage on the enemy team (focus'd primarily on one person, but the collateral damage is pretty intense), where as an AD caster is going to be attempting to get to the ADC or other high value single target.

I think you guys are comparing quarterbacks to runningbacks (though, I know nothing of football, but I think those are different roles)

67chrome 02-08-2013 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by draydurmil (Hozzászólás 34403861)
if u look at char stats armor/lvl gains reach around 70 to 80 per character as mr/lvl only stays at 30 for adr mages tanks only bruisers get mr/lvl gains. magic pen runes would already give u around 15 to 19 sorc shoes 15 plus HG 15 thats already 45 to 49 magic pen already not counting void staff and abyssal scepter.

"melee" is generally the tag you look for to determine MR per level gains, not bruiser. Only 7 melee champions don't get MR per level - among those Poppy, Galio, and Gragas, Maokai, Shen, Singed, ~Jayce, and ~Elise. Of course, Jayce and Elise get more than the 22.5 MR from their ultimate though, placing them in a better spot than most champions in terms of MR scaling.

Galgus 02-08-2013 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keitterman (Hozzászólás 34431842)
I notice that mages tend to talk about their damage as single target, but almost all mages do multi-target damage, where as AD casters are more single target. Additionally, the mages normally do their damage from range, instead of like, Pantheon where he's got to be in their face to do his heartseeker.

I think that's a pretty significant difference, and why the bulwark is a good counter. You're hitting multiple targets, so they are defending multiple targets.

In a late game teamfight, a mage is going to drop a carpet of damage on the enemy team (focus'd primarily on one person, but the collateral damage is pretty intense), where as an AD caster is going to be attempting to get to the ADC or other high value single target.

I think you guys are comparing quarterbacks to runningbacks (though, I know nothing of football, but I think those are different roles)

Not all burst mages have much much AOE- see Veigar and Leblanc.

Keitterman 02-08-2013 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galgus (Hozzászólás 34434809)
Not all burst mages have much much AOE- see Veigar and Leblanc.

Leblanc is an assassin..

additionaly, I'll concede that that Veigar is an exception, but he's pretty unique in a lot of ways with his infinite AP and anti-mage ult, but he does have disruptive aoe dmg for team fights, even horizon is great, and his rock drops on a small aoe, but still hits multiple targets (it should drop from the sky faster imo)

Galgus 02-08-2013 01:41 PM

Most burst mages are really geared to remove one target from a fight with AOE more on the side- Leblanc and Ahri are assassins of a sort, but they are also burst mages.

Veigar's purpose is to turn a fight into a 4v5 before it starts.

I actually love its current delay- adds suspense and allows its CD to be what it is imo.

Keitterman 02-08-2013 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galgus (Hozzászólás 34435871)
Most burst mages are really geared to remove one target from a fight with AOE more on the side- Leblanc and Ahri are assassins of a sort, but they are also burst mages.

Veigar's purpose is to turn a fight into a 4v5 before it starts.

I actually love its current delay- adds suspense and allows its CD to be what it is imo.

Although Ahri can assassinate, I think that has more to do with her ult letting her drop her kit and then choose to finish with her ult, or use it to get out, like the assassins do. All of her damage abilities are multi-target, making her do a lot of team damage, and her orb does true-damage on return, which is pretty rockin' also. If brand could flash away three times, he'd probably be labeled as an assassin too.


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